Posted on 12/01/2021 3:44:06 PM PST by naturalman1975
Very good. I would be interested in seeing your take on other stories coming out of Australia so we can gain a full picture.
Thanks for the update. I sometimes watch sky news clips on YouTube and have noticed that what they were reporting bore little resemblance to some of the more extreme clickbait stories we have been reading here on FR. It is good to hear a first-hand account.
With that said, as others have stated, I am a bit repulsed by the “camps”. There may be some logic behind it as you explained but it still seems to be the slipperiest of slopes given what we have witnessed in the last two years.
With that being said, I don’t think anyone in America under this current regime or in blue states can throw many stones at our friends down under..... much of the Western world has gone full on mad.
Stay safe FRiend.
It was actually an overextension of Victoria's supposed human rights laws. And that's one reason why calling it martial law is incredibly misleading. Martial law (it isn't called that, but the concept does exist) can only be declared by the Governor General at a federal level and there's a number of protections in place to limit the possibility of it being abused. Those protections do not exist with what happened in Victoria specifically. And calling it martial law makes it look like it's the Commonwealth government doing it and allows people like Daniel Andrew's to deflect attention from who is actually making the decisions. He's likely to be reelected next year because he's managed to convince enough ill informed voters that nothing is his fault, and everything is the Prime Minister's fault. And the bullshit like "martial law" is part of the reason, he's been able to do that.
And what redress do you have in your democracy to prevent the police from doing this unscientific and illogical act?
Not much. Because of state law - Victorian law - that says human rights can be suspended during a declared state of emergency. It's part of the 'bill of rights' that was adopted in this state fifteen years ago, which at the time, American conservatives including many here on Freerepublic told me I was some sort of fascist idiot for opposing. They didn't seem to be capable of understanding that such a document written by a socialist government in 2005 wasn't likely to bear all that much resemblance to what America's genius patriots came up with two centuries ago. Again, misinformation and misunderstandings like that made it harder for us to fight that.
2. You said “we did”. Which means it is in the past.
I like to know why not anymore.
Protests probably had a little effect but not that much. What mattered was vaccination numbers.
I tried to explain this on FR many times, but, again, a lot of people here wouldn't listen.
Opening up was explicitly based on specific vaccine targets being met. This was agreed many months ago as a compromise between the Federal government (which didn't support most lockdowns but had no power to stop them) and the more extreme state governments that were locking down constantly and had the power to do so. People here understood how it worked and that it created clear timelines to change things that were very likely (although I will agree not certain) to be adhered to. In the event, they have been adhered to as we expected. Was it a perfect way of doing things? No. It was just the best we could get with the system of government we have.
But Americans - including, again, many here on FR were telling us it wouldn't work. Well, it has. We know how the system works. We know how to make it work. And it gets bloody annoying when people who don't understand it at all tell us it's not going to work from their position of utter ignorance and paranoia about their own governments.
I'll take Australia's democracy over America's any day, At least when we have an election, we know who actually won and they are the person who takes office. I don't always get the government I want, but I've never had one that I thought might have stolen the election through fraud.
And I don’t believe in imprisoning people for social hygiene. As another poster noted maybe if this was smallpox or Ebola but this thing is barely more lethal than the flu. If you can lock people up for this, fire them from their jobs, force them to stay in their homes, wreck the economy, and raise a whole generation with barely the rudiments of an education then you are free to treat them like a herd of cattle for their “own good.” Live free or take one with you.
As Americans we find the notion that the group makes these kinds of decisions for individuals very scary.
Group power over individuals has a very ugly history all over the world.
I hope you understand why that type of language is like waving a red cape at a bull.
Pointing out the NAZI's told their prisoners the first day they were there for a medical checkup.
Yes, the Nazis did certain things. Australia isn't doing most of those things and it's ridiculous to make that comparison.
These people that test negative for covid are being "quarantined".
A small number of people who were living in the same house in overcrowded, unsanitary conditions as people with infections are being quarantined to see if they become infectious. Once the incubation period is over, they will be allowed to return home if they continue to test negative. If they test positive they will be treated, if needed, and tested until they return negative tests. Then they will be allowed to return home.
Those that escaped will likely face maximum fines.
Possible, but unlikely. They may not be fined at all and if they are, it is very unlikely to be the maximum.
The Aboriginal Australians are claiming this is a land grab. What happens when they can't pay their fine? Will they lose their lands?
A few people have made that claim. They are wrong. There's no mechanism by which their lands can be taken under these laws. There are other laws that could be used for that purpose if somebody actually wanted to do that, but those laws are not being used. Because that isn't what is happening. And, no, failure to pay a fine could not lead to loss of the type of title these people have.
A ‘penalty unit’ is $222 under Commonwealth law, multiplied by 300 (maximum units) equals $66,600
First of all, I don't get where you get this 300 multiplier from. You haven't provided any evidence for it. I doubt it's true, although you may have been lead to believe it.
Secondly, Commonwealth law is irrelevant in this case - Northern Territory is what applies. A penalty unit is currently $157 under Territory law. I only mention the difference because it just illustrates how you do not know what you are talking about.
you claimed the maximum fine for extremely poor people living in large communes was $5000.
Yes. Because it is. This is a fact.
A lot of Australians do as well. But indigenous Australians tend to be an exception to that. Why? Probably because they never really had any real power to make decisions for themselves (they didn't really have full citizenship until 1967) and the only way they got any power to begin with was with collective action.
And that's the choice they overwhelmingly continue to make. Those that don't like that, tend to leave the indigenous communities and just live as ordinary Australians. But this stuff is dealing with the ones who have freely chosen to continue to live in those communities. I wouldn't make that choice. But what right do I have to tell them what choices they should make?
Read your own post.
Some of those folks had the choice to leave the reservation pre-Covid but they can’t do so now?
Is that what you are defending?
It sounds like “Hotel California”. :-)
It seems to be the case that Australians really enjoy being micromanaged by the government. They like lockdowns, being fined $5000 for going outside without a mask, quarantine camps, extremely restrictive gun laws, having to check daily whether they’re even allowed outside, and so on. They will angrily defend everything their governments do to them. Living under a neverending torrent of government edicts for the rest of their lives is fine; what really scares them is the thought of living as free people.
Even the Australia cheerleading squad on here seem to have difficulty identifying much that they disagree with. They post vague statements about how maybe there were a few things here and there that weren’t too wonderful but overall it’s pretty good. So they are on board with the substance and results, what they’re really angry with is mischaracterizations:
* someone lied and said we were in a military lockdown, but you see it was squads of armed police doing it (with only a bit of help from the army). Why, yes, they have no recourse against the police either but it’s completely different!!
* Someone said Australia is like a dictatorship but, you see, it’s only the state governments that have become dictatorships (in unison) so it’s just completely untrue.
* Totalitarianism isn’t really totalitarianism if most people want it.
* Yes that lady was arrested for saying people should protest the government but, don’t you see, it was illegal to organize a protest so she was doing the wrong thing.
* If we decide that the non-compliant should be cast out from society then that’s just how it is and you people need to respect it!!
and so on.
There seems to be no degree of government intrusion that Australians won’t rationalize away as actually proving that Australia is a perfectly free and “democratic” country, and the focus on “democratic” is the key. Their country has no significant underpinning values of freedom and very little limitation on what their government(s) can do, and to the extent they had any in the past it was something of a gentleman’s agreement that has been entirely discarded in the last two years. You can see now they’re reduced to defending it on the basis that it’s “democratic”. They may be correct — but it’s less of a defense than an example of the dangers of “democracy” and its uselessness in protecting liberty. It might continue to be “democratic” but the place seems finished as a free country.
Y’know the thing that strikes me most about anglo western countries as opposed to the US isn’t so much the laws, its the viewpoint towards obedience. Americans frequently refuse to follow rules that strike them as stupid. The COVID stuff is an excellent example. There is a federal mandate to wear masks on buses. Depending on where youre at, people somewhat obey or don’t obey at all. I’m in an area that doesn’t obey at all. And no one says a word. Same thing with marijuana. Marijuana is illegal under federal law. Yet most of our states allow it for medical purposes and a large minority allow it for recreational purposes. In spite of federal law.
There is an American classic book that I think captures the underlying viewpoint. On Civil Disobedience by Henry Thoreau.
As for gun laws, a handgun or long arm can be purchased in all states. Its a pain in some of the very blue areas, but doable. In the very red states it is possible to purchase a firearm (private sale) or build one with no paperwork and carry it pretty much anywhere you want without any license. And its perfectly legal.
As for voting, there is no state where it’s compulsory. Some states automatically register people to vote (enrollment), but even those offer an opt out. I’m glad that Australia is mostly avoiding jail for noncompliance. They should still offer an opt out for conscientious objectors.
Some of those folks had the choice to leave the reservation pre-Covid but they can’t do so now?
Is that what you are defending?
No, because it's not really an accurate description of what is happening in my view.
People who chose to live on their ancestral lands under agreements that they will be supported in doing so (because they wouldn't be able to live there without support) have been moved to a place they can get medical care as part of that support and those agreements. That's actually largely separate from the quarantine issue as it happens (if they'd been allowed to stay, they'd currently be required to quarantine at home and not leave).
The restrictions are temporary in nature and are intended to protect people in surrounding areas. As a very high proportion of those people are immunocompromised, I don't think that's unreasonable.
Are you “fully vaccinated”?
Plenty of people here ignore the rules as well, and generally seem to be getting away with it. I generally follow them but I was in the Navy for over twenty years and got used to following orders even when I don’t agree with them.
Guns can be purchased across Australia. I was in my local gunshop this morning. We do have restrictions, but a lot of Americans seem to think we’re far more restricted than we actually are.
I really dislike compulsory voting, but I prefer to spend the time I have on political issues on ones where I think I’m more likely to be successful. On the other hand, I like our preferential system and that that works very well as opposed to first past the post. Only two parties can realistically form governments in Australia (well, technically one party, and one permanent coalition of two conservative parties) but minor parties can get some representation and minority views get heard. In my state of Victoria, the sole representative of the Shooters Party has just been very helpful in stopping our socialist state government seizing even more power through new laws. I suspect he only got elected because of people who wouldn’t have voted for the major parties, but had to turn up.
Yes, I am. I chose to be vaccinated before there were any mandates here that came close to applying to me. I don’t support mandates but I made a free choice. At this point, I am subject to a mandate because of my employment as a teacher, but that only came in very recently, months after I’d been vaccinated.
You do realize that you aren’t “vaccinated” at all.
What you got is not a vaccine.
The Japanese considered and thought their Emperor as god.
Japanese immigrants and expats would not just give up their belief in their god and their allegiance to just because they moved elsewhere.
Fast forward to present with all the Chineese nationals in the USA; Professionals and students. Their allengence is to the CCP who placed them or allowed them to enter the USA.
I’m not a Doctor.
Doctors I trust say it’s a vaccine.
I’ll believe them over people on the internet.
But I could be wrong.
Most of us don't. But we also don't appreciate Americans spreading lies that make it harder for us to deal with the real problems.
And that's what you're doing.
Stopped right there.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.