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US can kill its own citizens without review when state secrets are involved, DOJ lawyer argues
ABA Journal ^ | 18 Nov 2020 | Debra Cassens Weiss

Posted on 11/27/2020 8:24:29 AM PST by Theoria

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To: OldGoatCPO

Agreed, and any US citizen, reporter or not, who conspires against the US must be prosecuted.


41 posted on 11/27/2020 9:31:20 AM PST by elpadre
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To: pierrem15
'It's always been accepted that the US government can kill citizens who have taken up arms against it.'

That usually has been under the theme of treason and a declaration of war. Blindly giving the power to kill a citizen to the executive without a trial or review is hardly the way of a republic.

42 posted on 11/27/2020 9:33:27 AM PST by Theoria (I should never have surrendered. I should have fought until I was the last man alive)
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To: DesertRhino

we’ll just have to agree to disagree


43 posted on 11/27/2020 9:34:33 AM PST by elpadre
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To: Theoria
Based on the facts, I don't understand why the court is even hearing the case. The guy was shelled as part of an ongoing military operation. Even if he were added to a "kill list," if that's only applicable to a war zone as a part of ongoing military operations, I do not see the legal impediment.

You are also incorrect about the declaration of war, as the post 9/11 AUMF is open ended in both time and place, and the courts have already ruled it the equivalent of a declaration of war.

If you object to that, get Congress to repeal it. But there's no way the courts are going to step in, because such declarations or authorizations and war operations are clearly political decisions left to the other branches.

If ordinary citizens going about their business in the US are in danger of being murdered by government agents as a matter of ordinary policy, then no court decision is suddenly going to change that.

44 posted on 11/27/2020 9:56:59 AM PST by pierrem15 ("Massacrez-les, car le seigneur connait les siens" )
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To: pierrem15

Joined what other side? We are not at war with Syria. We do not even belong there. He did not join ISIS or Al Qaeda so he is not a terrorist. He was never designated a terrorist by any EU or US agency. He took an unpopular stance which was opposite of our stated position in Syria. He did that by reporting on the war from the Syrian perspective, but nothing about that was illegal. Why do we have any American service members on the ground in Syria? Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Iraq are countries established by the French and British to divide up the Middle East colonies. Why do we care if Assad runs Syria? They are no threat to us. Assad is friends with Iran, so we are effect fighting a proxy war against Iran. But, it has been suggested that Assad would agree to evict Iran and not allow Iran to move oil and arms through Syria as terms to end fighting. All sides oppose ISIS. This mess is Obama’s Arab Spring, that’s how long it has gone on.

None of that matters, because the real issue is; did a US three letter agency attempt to kill an American citizen overseas. If the US citizen was placed on a kill list, that is illegal. The rest is just window dressing.


45 posted on 11/27/2020 9:58:49 AM PST by OldGoatCPO (No Caitiff Choir of Angles will sing for me)
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To: pierrem15

It is illegal for the US government to target an American citizen anywhere in the world, period. If he had taken up arms against the US, he would no longer be a US citizen. But he did not.

We absolutely bomb areas where high target people on a kill list are located. The claim is that he was placed on a kill list and as a consequence he was targeted. The government says it is under NO obligation to say whether he was on a kill list illegally or not. That is the issue. Can we force the government to prove it did or did not try to kill a US citizen. We do not always risk SEAL teams to take out someone on a kill list. Bombing them to oblivion is easier.


46 posted on 11/27/2020 10:06:34 AM PST by OldGoatCPO (No Caitiff Choir of Angles will sing for me)
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To: OldGoatCPO
By his own admission, he was with al-Qaeda, or he wouldn't have been shelled. Do you actually believe theses savages would allow a neutral journalist to be present? Regarding Syria, as I said the AUMF is open-ended. If you think such open-ended declarations are unconstitutional, that's a novel argument.

I still doubt that the courts will intervene, but they may decide that Americans cannot be put on such lists without judicial review. In which case, people like the defendant will simply be referred to as "Unidentified Terrorist #15" in all official documents. What the plaintiff is demanding is both legally dubious and operationally impossible to enforce.

47 posted on 11/27/2020 10:07:55 AM PST by pierrem15 ("Massacrez-les, car le seigneur connait les siens" )
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To: OldGoatCPO
If he had taken up arms against the US, he would no longer be a US citizen.

This is not correct. Theoretically, if captured, such a person could be put on trial for treason.

As far as whether he was on a kill list or not, if that was a military decision made in the conduct of operations, then no, the courts do not have any authority to know. Operational military decisions are controlled by the executive.

If we have an out-of-control executive using the military to target political opponents then we have a much larger problem than any court can solve.

If you go overseas, join with a terrorist group after stating your opposition to operations targeting them and then get targeted yourself, well, then as the US diplomat said to the family of the American leftist "journalist" killed by Pinochet, "You play with fire, you get burned."

48 posted on 11/27/2020 10:16:51 AM PST by pierrem15 ("Massacrez-les, car le seigneur connait les siens" )
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To: Theoria

Well that puts a whole lot of Government employed leakers and media scum in the crosshairs.


49 posted on 11/27/2020 10:29:18 AM PST by DeWalt (Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.)
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To: Theoria

My question is, Does the Government realize that goes both ways?


50 posted on 11/27/2020 10:31:50 AM PST by DeWalt (Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.)
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To: Theoria

Warm up to make Voter Fraud a State Secret?

Trump’s Legal Team had better watch out for Reaper Drones.


51 posted on 11/27/2020 10:35:33 AM PST by Kickass Conservative (Don't blame me, I Voted for the Guy who actually Won the Election.)
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To: Red6

And the Judge that agreed.


52 posted on 11/27/2020 10:36:05 AM PST by DeWalt (Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.)
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To: Wuli

Using the rules they employed to redact documents. States secrets is a broad brush.


53 posted on 11/27/2020 10:39:01 AM PST by DeWalt (Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.)
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To: PGR88

I’m sure he would testify to back that claim if he were still
able to.


54 posted on 11/27/2020 10:42:58 AM PST by DoughtyOne (I'm calling for terrorist and criminal reform. Defund them now!)
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To: dp0622

Every terrorist is a “journalist” when they have a cell phone.


55 posted on 11/27/2020 10:43:06 AM PST by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge)
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To: Theoria
“On the Ground Network” news channel, which provides access to the views of rebel fighters. The militants are linked to al-Qaida

In other words, he is an enemy propagandist working to promote the views of al Qaeda, not unlike a German reporter working for Goebbels back in WW2.

56 posted on 11/27/2020 10:47:10 AM PST by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge)
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To: DesertRhino
Church was a national hero. He exposed massive FBI and CIA crimes. Church was an Intel Officer in WWII and knew the difference between legitimate intel and police state crap. The spook world always claims that any attempt to reign them in endangered America, compromises sources and methods, and “if only we could know what they do for us”.

"But it's OUR CIA, now!" - The Left

57 posted on 11/27/2020 10:47:47 AM PST by dfwgator (Endut! Hoch Hech!)
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To: pierrem15
Really, are you a former JAG, if so you were not very good at it. The UCMJ gives them no such jurisdiction. He is a non-combatant the military has no jurisdiction nor can it randomly place a citizen on a kill list. The US government is suppose to be in Syria to oppose ISIS and protect refugees. The US has (supposedly) participated directly in very few offensive strikes, usually in retaliation for an attack. It should be easy to prove he was not targeted. Close the court, read in the judge and present him classified info the proves their case. Easy to do unless, they did place him on a kill list. By the way as an individual who worked for a foreign government, technically as a combatant during a war, I had to be designated a US government representative by the Navy otherwise I could have lost my citizenship. Despite the government being our ally.

Are you saying he was just potentially collateral damage in an ongoing operation? So is the government in this case, the plaintiffs claim is he was target. The government lawyers told the judge we are the government we do not have to tell you if he was on a kill list or not. If you cannot see the problem with that, hell I don't what to tell you.

58 posted on 11/27/2020 10:50:25 AM PST by OldGoatCPO (No Caitiff Choir of Angles will sing for me)
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To: pierrem15

Did I say it was unconstitutional? I said we have no business being in Syria, Trump actual agrees with me, or I with him depending on how you look at it. Just because the AUMF was left open ended does not make it good policy.

Regardless of how they ID a target, somewhere some agency designated by name an individual as a target, The government has not claimed he was an enemy combatant.

All that is BS anyway, The government told a judge to piss off we are the government we don’t have to tell you $hit. That is the issue. Second to that is the possibility that a US citizen was targeted on a kill list. Still a free country, we are still entitled to make decisions not matter how stupid.


59 posted on 11/27/2020 11:42:37 AM PST by OldGoatCPO (No Caitiff Choir of Angles will sing for me)
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To: PGR88

Was the first name that popped into my head too..


60 posted on 11/27/2020 11:50:57 AM PST by Bikkuri (Joe Biden: "Abraham Lincoln is the most racist president ever.")
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