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To: ThunderSleeps

If you disable it autopilot, that activated the MCAS system which the pilots were not even told existed. Your answer isn’t accurate.


17 posted on 11/18/2020 6:16:37 AM PST by DesertRhino (Dog is man's best friend, and moslems hate dogs. Add that up. .... )
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To: DesertRhino
No, I was referring to disabling electric/power trim. With that breaker off neither autopilot nor MCAS can change trim. I believe pulling that breaker is actually part of the runaway trim checklist if disengaging the autopilot fails to correct the trim problem.

The crashes happened because pilots were not aware of MCAS and it's ability to create a runaway trim scenario from faulty sensor input (AOA and/or airspeed). Worse, MCAS could create a repeated scenario by re-engaging after pilots used their electric trim controls to recover. Pilots would think they had recovered by trimming up and disengaging the autopilot. MCAS would re-engage and recreate the problem all over again. MCAS was not disabled by disengaging the autopilot – always on.

With MCAS malfunctioning and repeatedly engaging and calling for nose-down trim pilots would have to use their electric trim controls to command nose up. This would dis-engage MCAS, briefly, but then it would re-engage. This was seen not only in flight data from the crashes but from other flights where pilots were able to recover. The solution is to recover reasonable trim attitude then pull the breaker removing MCAS's ability to change control surfaces. This was successfully done on several other flights with sensor issues that did not crash.

The gotcha is once the pilots pull the breaker, they have to use the manual hand wheels to adjust trim. SOP but... Recovering from significant trim (stabilizer deflection up or down) requires time and strength due to aerodynamic forces on the stabilizer, particularly when it is fully or nearly fully deflected. On the 737 the trim system changes the AOA of the entire horizontal stabilizer. When trimmed nose down this can create more nose down pitch than is possible to counter-act with the elevators commanding full nose up. (note, as an engineer I'm not sure I'd have designed the controls that way. I'm assuming there's some reason why it is necessary for the trim system to have that much aerodynamic control)

I’ve read that the Ethiopian crash was due to their inability to manually recover trim. They had successfully pulled the breakers but without the electric assist they could not manually trim back up in time. The net is that like so many aviation incidents it isn’t just one thing, it’s a whole sequence or series of things.

25 posted on 11/18/2020 8:08:57 AM PST by ThunderSleeps
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