Posted on 11/01/2020 2:51:38 AM PST by RomanSoldier19
Wouldn’t it be great to reestablish our base at Cam Ranh Bay as allies with VN?
Then again it may start here in the gulf of thonkin
f Tonkin incident, also known as the USS Maddox incident, was a hoax international confrontation that led to the United States engaging more directly in the Vietnam War. It involved a fabricated confrontation between ships of North Vietnam and the United States in the waters of the Gulf of Tonkin. en.wikipedia.org
Hoaxes generally don't include torpedoes: during the first incident, the North Vietnamese confronted the USS Maddox with three torpedo boats and opened fire at 5,000m, narrowly missing the US ship. During the ensuing gun battle, the Maddox had a single 14.5mm cannon hit on her bridge.
The so-called second attack was possibly the result of wired up navy crews firing at false radar images - but hardly a hoax. Hoaxes are deliberately fraudulent events, you know, like accusing a president you don't like with Russian Collusion.
I'm going to assume that you were too young to have fought in Vietnam and don't know better.
People use words incorrectly.
While an incident happened; what people refer to as a hoax is the response to it.
Honestly, I don’t know enough about the incident to voice an opinion. But I do know that the response to the incident was probably not proportional—and it lead to significant involvement.
The term “hoax” is used a lot by Trump—and the colloquial meaning has moved from the literal. In literal terms it means false or fake. In colloquial terms it means manipulation.
These days there is a gross misuse of language, sometimes I wonder if we are speaking English anymore.
Most of the information about our war in Vietnam has been skewed by the Left. At the time, the NVA had at least two divisions operating in the south and we had only two choices: ignore what was happening - direct involvement by the NVA and allow Vietnam to fall into the Soviet sphere - or intervene to attempt to keep South Vietnam free, and the give the rest of Southeast Asia breathing space.
We underestimated the size and commitment of the enemy, the difficulty fighting a war half a world away, and the bad fit between our equipment, training and antics with those of the enemy. It didn’t help that our government chose to send a large portion of draftees into combat.
Nonetheless, we had it won until the Left/Democrats won the Congress.
The whole draftee thing would have worked—both to provide good soldiers, and to limit the depth of our involvement—if there hadn’t been the politicization of the process.
It has always been my opinion that if you are going to have a draft, the ONLY excuse for not going in would be a medical deferment as designated by military doctors...OR...if you get a college deferment, it is combined with a 4 year commitment as an officer. And only then if there are prioritized “slots.”
Otherwise, if “your number comes up” you are going.
There was too much “dicking” around with people getting deferments. I am sure there are other valid deferment reasons—I havent given it THAT much thought. But I think you will get my jist.
If you send EVERYONE, then the entire country gets a taste of it—and gets behind it. Or, it stops.
Going to war was too easy and it still seems to be. The founders wanted the politicians to think long and hard before such an endeavor. We need to return to that.
No declaration—no draft.
This is the first mention of the Quad, a fantastic new alliance that is an actual, real, functioning military rebuttal to the China forays.
This alliance is perhaps even more important than theArab alliance containing Iran. It has been studiously ignored by the Presstitutes because it is a China killer. It is perhaps the most important alliance in 70 years since NATO
President Trump is a damn genius.
I think the alliance should be called POTATO – P.acific O.cean T.reaty A.gainst T.yrannical O.rientals
Understand the necessity/importance of a draft but strongly disagree about sending the draftees into infantry combat units. That should have been left to volunteers only. The success of the war required very highly-trained and committed Marines and soldiers - committed to going for the long haul and committed to protecting the South Vietnamese.
The draftees should have served in stateside posts, combat service support, or in Europe opposing the Warsaw Pact - and freed up professionals for our war.
While I was with a Marine rifle company in Vietnam, we had exactly one draftee sent to us. We were incredulous, but he told us that he had been an anti war demonstrator but his number came up and while he was in the draft reception center they selected one in ten to be Marines and he got picked.
He was a nice, kind of gentle sort and he tried really hard but it was clear from the beginning that he didn’t have talent or strength to hold up - so, as it became clear that he was becoming a danger to us and himself, our company commander took him to battalion and they gave him orders home.
I was thinking a general draft—mostly into the Army.
In hindsight, I DID know we drafted into the Marines. While never serving in the Corps, I agree that is NOT the place to send someone who is not going to be “Gung Ho.” I can only imagine the eye rolls he got upon showing up.
In my post I was going to suggest a “kind of draft” for women that would place in them stateside support roles which would allow for more folks to be sent into the war zones.
I have two daughters and think they are a capable as most men these days. I would not suggest they qualify for infantry...but that should be there choice and as long as they pass the physical tests at the same standards—thats fine.
But drafting into the Marines? I am 100% in agreement with that.
I am all for universal service - including my children - but military service should be something only for the select among them and infantry combat strictly for the young men capable of its rigors. In other words, any draftees who volunteer for infantry military service should have to pass a rigorous selection process. Combat doesn’t favor randomness.
In Vietnam, the average time for a Marine to be wounded or killed was a month and a half. Very few frontline grunts made it all the way to thirteen months and every grunt I knew had at least one Purple Heart. We were well-selected and in majority, talented. It was a true meat grinder.
Not a place for the untalented or unwilling.
Tonkin is strategically important to China.
It’s the rear flank of Hainan island where much of their navy is ported.
I'm going to assume that you were too young to have fought in Vietnam and don't know better.
You “serviced” in 1969 with “navy sailors”. Either you are some foreign character - or a not-particularly-well-educated individual, based on your the grammar of your response.
That, and the record is clear enough: the North Vietnamese navy did fire upon the USS Maddox - even the Lefties agree on that point.
Sound like you’ve been drinking somebody’s Kool-Aid.
Young Vietnamese look wistfully at cities like Seoul and Tokyo and think, "If only our grandparents had let the Americans stay."
What are you are you a want a be or one of the kiss ass military brass.
Imagine explaining to your peers dying at such a young age in combat in south Vietnam
“Don’t worry in fifty years Macdonald’s and Hilton will be back and the NVA will be begging us to come back and build a naval base at Cam Ranh Bay to help them against the Red Chinese”
Is that victory.....sort of like the boat people validated our cause?
I’m sixty two...last year to register for that draft...I had relatives who were seniors when I was in early middle school who went and some wounded and one died
Friends too...one bragged he was gonna whup those VC commies
Came home pretty fast missing a foot from a booby trap....and started drinking
My father in law was a three war combat vet with two tours in Vietnam
He grew disgruntled badly over the prosecution of the war and especially hands tied and growing reliance on usually worthless ARVN troops
He retired disgusted an E-8
Sixty thousand lives later of young folks from our generation...and it feels like we won kind of.....but could we have done it differently without so much our own blood especially given how y’all were treated coming home
Maybe if we hadn’t decided to bolster French colonial claims
Then again Vietnam was a hot spot in an existential threat of a Cold War
I don’t have the answers...
Who does...
I just always wince a little reading the westernizing and cozying up from the north Vietnamese leadership now
That was the blood of our kids...I’ve got sons that age..
It’s heartrending
No question the media cost the war....and politics ....look at their records talking about how Nixon’s bomibing dikes and Haiphong mines were killing them or how Tet demoralized them....yet we retreated or we stopped to sue for peace
Commies then and now in ANTIFA don’t make peace
It’s simply half time
If you think Vietnam plus 50 years is tough, imagine how strange it was for our troops in Japan and Germany just a few years after those bloody wars.
The problem was that while the majority of Vietnam was Buddhist, the South Vietnamese government was Catholic. Hard to win hearts and minds in that situation.
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