Posted on 04/27/2020 9:01:15 PM PDT by DoodleBob
Yup. When crap like this even shows up on FR, you know the country is in a bad way.
Well said. We likely won’t know how much better, worse, or the same Sweden did when comparing death rates for at least a year.
We will also see how badly our economy suffered and how much lost revenue was had by every local, state, and federal level treasury in comparison.
How do we put a price tag on bankrupt businesses, suicides, newly homeless and other things as a direct result of the financial hit?
This is much bigger than just a death rate that may or may not be accurate when underlying health issues are factored in.
Eh, they’re probably counting deaths from moose bites as COVID-19. Moose bites kan be nasty.
Wonder how that would have worked in NYC and other dense populations...so many things we will never know...
Yesterday there was another post from this Swedish newspaper. I found the below pasted excerpt very interesting.
Are old people not being admitted to ICU in the USA? I think not. Maybe that is the situation in Europe, but somehow I doubt it is the case in the USA.
‘’’’And the number of patients receiving intensive care is not the same as the number of seriously ill patients. People who are especially at-risk due to factors such as old age or underlying conditions may not be admitted to intensive care if doctors judge that they would be unlikely to survive the treatment (this kind of assessment, or something similar, exists in every country). As of April 14th, there was still spare capacity in Sweden’s intensive care units.”””
https://www.thelocal.se/20200414/understanding-swedens-figures-on-the-coronavirus
If so, I hope they cøunted the fatality of JURGEN WIGG, whø died of a bïtee from a Møøse trained to mix concrete and sign complicated insurance forms.
LOL! (took me a second though...)
I am not saying that shutting down every bar and beauty salon in the US was a great idea (btw, it wasn't). But I'm also not saying that Sweden should lead the way for America. I like their theoretical 'hands off' approach. But as you scratch, you sniff some noxious fumes such as a relatively higher level of fatalities, economic fallout, strong divergence of opinion in their country (they're just as divided as is America), forced closure of restaurants not abiding by the 2 metre rule, etc.
This potential for legal pulling the plug will likely come to a head when/if Sweden's critical care capacity gets tapped. So far, they have about 35% capacity; if it hits a tipping point, I'm prepared for stories about euthanasia coming out. Sure, I bet that's happening here, but over there people seem to be down with that practice. More to come, no doubt.
As for leadership, it is odd that normally smart Americans who (correctly) ignore liberals when they tell us to look at European nations for wisdom on things like gun control or health care, suddenly become part of Team Sweden when it comes to managing a pandemic.
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Is it really that odd? Sweden showed a tendency towards liberty and government restraint in their approach. It was natural to hold them up as a positive example.
Thank you for the detailed and well thought out response to my snarky comment. Although I disagree with most of what you said, your perspective is thought provoking as is the quote from you above.
People can be counted on to react in a way that is more helpful to their best interests than heavy handed authorities. The way that people live and behave around here is largely responsible for the difference in the level of fatalities here than in other places.
However it is not that people here are smarter or better. People in the part of King and Snohomish Counties that this hit in first mostly live in single family homes, drive in their own vehicles to get around, and tend to keep to themselves.
Long before this coronavirus nonsense, I was waiting to get into a freezer at the grocery store while a young couple discussed the various choices. They were considering some of Mrs. Fireman 15’s favorite “Healthy Choice” frozen entrees so I said to them that they were tasty and maybe even good for them. Both of them stepped back in horror as they were confounded that someone much older would attempt to speak to them. They immediately scurried off. They probably discuss the color and consistency of their poos and share other intimate details about themselves with complete strangers on Friend Face, but they are afraid to have any contact with others in real life.
Some people probably have no idea what you are talking about with the diversion of air traffic to Vancouver International in Canada, a two hour drive North of here. Many of the half million Chinese people who live here, their friends and families were taking direct flights between SeaTac and Wuhan after the crisis began there and after the Chinese government had restricted their travel to other parts of China. When President Trump's “travel ban” began on January 31 restricting these flights, they were just diverted to Vancouver International instead. There was no actual disruption to travelers coming directly from the hot-spot in China to here. I am not quite sure why you feel this slight inconvenience to travelers from China was helpful in any way. Over 10,000 people who had just taken flights from the affected area of China crossed the border into Washington in the first two weeks of February alone.
I was talking to a friend of mine recently who is a supervisor at the SeaTac TSA. They had several people who tested positive during this time period but only one who developed any symptoms. They were all negative and back to work within a couple of weeks.
To give the Chinese some credit... after what they saw in Wuhan personally, many were wearing masks in late December and early January when they went to the Costco in Kirkland, the malls in Bellevue and other public places. At that time people were trying to figure out what was up with that. At least some of the people who assumed that they had been exposed were taking some precautions not to spread it around.
The problem is that Chinese and many other recent immigrants tend to share small living spaces with a large number of other people along with vehicles, etc... The other issue is that in this area many people from China work in health care and many have more than one job often taking care of the elderly both in nursing care facilities and in people's homes. So this thing spread through the area here before the rest of the country had much awareness of it.
The Vancouver diversion is noteworthy because when SARS hit in 2003, Vancouver did a much better job than Toronto in controlling the spread. Thus, I'd expect Vancouver to be more, how shall we say, restrictive (notwithstanding that it's in Canada). True, Canada's overall size-adjusted fatality total is higher than that of Washington State, but BC's is much lower than that of King County, WA. That could be due to a number of other factors not covered here. But, as I said elsewhere, I don't look beyond our borders to find wisdom on how the US should handle our own situation.
Your insight into the density (i.e., single family homes and driving vs public transportation) may be a clue into why WA was hit early but has fared better. There are likely a zillion other factors, but this may be, in part, why WA, CA, and OR have lower adjusted fatalities than the more dense Eastern states. In fact, it is purely politics that WA, OR, and CA are locked in this economic death compact to stay closed longer than necessary.
I'm not sure of what is the 'much' that I said that is disagreeable - maybe you think we've struck out while SE is at 3-0 - but that's why there is vanilla and chocolate ice cream. To be clear, though, I'm in favor of risk-based shutting down (i.e., this virus kills those with pre-existing conditions and older age disproportionately - we should be helping them vs killing the paycheck of young baristas) AND opening things up.
Thanks for listening and your thoughtful commentary.
This might be a misinterpretation of what I meant to convey do to poor wording on my part. My initial feeling was that you believed that actions taken by the government have been helpful in controlling the situation here. I am not sure that this is a fair characterization after your two replies.
Now, that said, I recognize the legitimacy of State and local authorities to enact quarantines. The history of the states reflects the legality of such activity. However, for WA, per this site it seems that, aside from TB, WA has no authority to quarantine people!
I apologize if my commentary to the SE article hinted that I though govt overreach was dandy. And it would appear that in WA, there isn't a legal leg on which the Gov can stand. I'm not an attorney nor do I play one on TV. Your mileage may vary....Good luck.
I consider you a gentleman and a scholar at this point. Our discourse reminds me a bit of conversations that I had with an interesting older gentleman also named Bob who I met in my youth.
My father had run into financial difficulties and my college education had to be cut short so that I could assist in the business that he had become entangled in. For lunch I would eat at the very reasonably priced Royal Fork Buffet which provided enough food for $2 that I only needed to eat once a day. There were senior citizens who ate there everyday as well.
One of them was named Bob and we started sitting together. He was in his 70s and had recently been forced to “retire” from his job as the long time editor and chief of our local newspaper after it was bought out by an out of state conglomerate. I learned more from my conversations with Bob than from anyone who I had met in college.
We lost touch after I was able to go back to school and started working on other projects, but in the mid 90s I ran into him again when I found that he lived next door to a “retirement center” where my new wife was a department head.
At that point although he had almost completely lost his sight to macular degeneration he was helping his son also named Robert Merry with a book that he had written named, “Taking on the World: Joseph and Stewart Alsop- Guardians of the American Century”. He was still able to read with the help of optical devices. He said that he was happy to have lost his sight instead of his hearing because of his love for Mozart.
As you have said the constitutional basis for the current government overreach would appear tenuous at best. I had no idea the actual reasoning behind it could be traced back to the commerce clause as have so many other federal government overreaches.
And I am honored and humbled to have been able to conjure up such good memories. Sometimes I remind people of a bad meal. But that's ok...some meals people consider bad - like corn cowder - are the best in my book.
Thank you again, and I hope our discourse is a sign of good things to come.
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