Posted on 05/18/2019 7:14:18 AM PDT by CondoleezzaProtege
The Allied Pilots Association grabbed national headlines this week when its president released a secret audio recording, in which American Airlines pilots can be heard asking Boeing officials tough questions about the safety of the 737 MAX aircraft.
But some association members are furious with the decision to release the audio by President Dan Carey, who is in the midst of a heated runoff election to keep his seat at the top of the pilots’ labor union.
The comments by pilots heard in the recording, which was first published by The Dallas Morning News, seemed to contradict the official position of the union, which until the recording was publicly released had spoke only in full support of Boeing.
(Excerpt) Read more at star-telegram.com ...
On the audio, a Boeing official is heard telling pilots that software changes were coming, perhaps in as little as six weeks, but that the company didn't want to hurry the process.
The pilots indicated they weren't aware of the 737 Max's computerized stability program -- the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS.
"We flat out deserve to know what is on our airplanes," a pilot is heard saying.
"I don't disagree," the unidentified Boeing official answers.
"These guys didn't even know the damn system was on the airplane," a pilot says, seemingly referring to the Lion Air pilots. "Nor did anybody else."
"I don't know that understanding this system would have changed the outcome of this," the Boeing official says. "In a million miles you're going to maybe fly this airplane, and maybe once you're going to see this ever."
“Software changes”. Just what everyone loves to hear.
MCAS was effed up, but the bottom line is do not engage auto systems on take off or landing.
MCAS in engages itself automatically when the autopilot is -turned off-.
This is the most arrogant statement I have ever read. It is absolute BS.
If the pilots knew about and were trained on the MCAS system, in both cases, they would have saved the aircraft.
More to follow...
Deserve? Safety is what the passengers deserve. The pilots and the manufacturer have a duty of care to provide that.
“it’s not a bug, it’s a feature”
That is a problem.
“I don’t know that understanding this system would have changed the outcome of this,” the Boeing official says.
“In a million miles you’re going to maybe fly this airplane, and maybe once you’re going to see this ever.”
Maybe twice...before a forced shut down, due to plane crashes and loss of life. :-/
Incredible.
Today, throughout the MCAS disaster, beginning with the design and introduction of a truly defective aircraft, Boeing has lied to everyone involved. The FAA, the airlines, and most cynically of all, the pilots. One wonders how many lies and coverups have gone down in connection with Boeing's military business. They are a corrupt outfit, from the top on down.
And a major loss of life, at that.
I demand manual override, if you see this MCAS system, they allow manual override but it takes two men and it will bust your arm, maybe snap it in two.
You have 1000 ft and 400 passengers to figure it out.
It is my understanding you can completely disengage the system.
Any fool who engages this thing on take off or landing is a fool.
In the original MCAS design, the stabilizer trim switches (on each yoke) override the MCAS.
If the pilots knew about and were trained on MCAS, they would certainly determine that the initial pitch down is being caused by MCAS. Based on their airspeed alone, the pilots would know that the aircraft is not stalling, and would know that MCAS is malfunctioning. They would know that the stabilizer trim switches override MCAS.
They would simply trim the stabilizer back to neutral trim, then turn the stabilizer trim system off (two switches).
In fact, the Ethiopian pilots did use the stabilizer trim switches to trim the aircraft back to neutral. However, they did not then turn the stabilizer trim system off. MCAS re-engaged and pitched the nose down. The pilots did not know what to do.
346 people killed...Sad.
Your understanding of the override switches is lacking. Those switches(Stab) completely kill power to the electric trim motors. Think broken wire. While turning them off prevents MCAS from controlling the motors- It also prevents the yoke controls from functioning. That is most likely why the pilots in the latest crash turned them back on right before MCAS crashed the plane into the ground.
Also MCAS software was not even capable of making the determination that the plane was very close to the ground. And that, therefore going nose down was instant suicide. And so much more was wrong with it.
MCAS will go down as the most negligent software in the history of travel. Whatever individuals were involved in setting the specifications for MCAS- then they should be banned from working in industry for life.
“Do not engage auto systems on take off or landing.”
- Captain Sum Ting Wong
I stated: "They would simply trim the stabilizer back to neutral trim, then turn the stabilizer trim system off (two switches)."
I stand by my post #13 in its entirety.
I could have added that with the stabilizer trim system off, the pilots would then use manual trim.
MCAS will go down as the most negligent software in the history of travel.
Agree. MCAS design was defective. IMHO, Boeing's failure to inform and train the pilots on MCAS is inexcusable...whether it was malfeasance or misfeasance is TBD.
So this is for deep state to carry out assassinations?
“MCAS was effed up, but the bottom line is do not engage auto systems on take off or landing.”
“MCAS in engages itself automatically when the autopilot is -turned off-.”
I encourage both of you (and others here; you are not alone) to understand MCAS before making ignorant comments. There are PLENTY of resources posted to FR.
Astonishingly, as evidence of the difficulty of gleaning facts even this detailed article
https://www.aviationcv.com/aviation-blog/2019/shocking-facts-boeing-737max-crash
fails on multiple points:
-There is no information which outlines the fact that MCAS is deactivated with flaps extended.
- There is no analysis of the fact that the single AOA sensor for MCAS input was designed to prevent costly simulator certification requirements.
- There is no discussion of the fact that MCAS could be easily disabled...by pilots with the knowledge of the procedure when seconds count at low altitudes following takeoff.
- There is no discussion of the fact that a trained & experienced pilot could fly the aircraft safely without regards to MCAS or whether or not pilots were aware of the system.
- To the point of the prior, there is no discussion of the fact that a jumpseat pilot restored normal flight to a 737MAX which was being operated by inexperienced pilots.
- There is no discussion of the fact that the pilots who flew the doomed Lion Air 737MAX8 the previous day FAILED to report their incident (which was corrected by an off-duty pilot), which would have saved lives.
- There is no discussion of the fact that the 2 aircraft which crashed were being flown by state-owned airlines.
- There is no discussion of the fact that in both cases there was likely a defective sensor.
What this article does outline better than most is that the 737MAX was a rushed design and the FAA laid out the red carpet.
If you’re not aware of the importance of that statement, I encourage you to watch this short video regarding the 737NG (the previous version) and the FAA’s reckless role in permitting dangerous aircraft (737NG, not the MAX) to continue to fly without restriction or investigation of structural safety.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWxxtzBTxGU
I maintain that the 737 MAX 8 is a safe aircraft (a software update is obviously mandated, to include use of redundant sensor input). That stated, however, the industry trend to remove pilots from operation of the aircraft and failure of existing regulatory oversight for no other reason than corporate corruption are making commercial aviation more dangerous rather than safer.
Hence, I maintain that automation is decreasing flight safety as well.
Ignorance of the facts surrounding this aircraft, the 737NG, other crashes/causes and other industry problems are compounding the problem.
For the record, James Fallows over at The Atlantic has written some rather detailed & accurate articles about the 737MAX problem. I did not come across these articles until the past few days, having been forced to filter through all the internet BS poisoning public opinion on the matter to glean facts in an obviously emotional environment (people lied and other people died).
Must-read regarding 737 MAX 8:
Is It Time to Worry About the Boeing 737 Max 8?
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/03/et302-boeing-737-max-8-blame/584572/
A Shorter Guide to the Ethiopian Air Tragedy and the 737 Max 8
https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2019/03/shorter-guide-ethiopian-air-tragedy-and-737-max-8/584620/
Here’s What Was on the Record About Problems With the 737 Max
https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2019/03/heres-what-was-on-the-record-about-problems-with-the-737-max/584791/
‘Don’t Ground the Airplanes. Ground the Pilots.’
https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2019/03/dont-ground-the-airplanes-ground-the-pilots/584941/
The Jump-Seat Pilot and the Boeing 737 Max
https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2019/03/jump-seat-pilot-and-boeing-737-max/585301/
Must-read regarding another crash pertaining to inexperienced pilots and a defective sensor:
Air France crash prompts changes in Airbus speed sensors
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2009/0801/air-france-crash-prompts-changes-in-airbus-speed-sensors
Air France Flight 447 and the Safety Paradox of Automated Cockpits
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_eye/2015/06/25/air_france_flight_447_and_the_safety_paradox_of_airline_automation_on_99.html
THE HUMAN FACTOR
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-flight-447-crash
Faulty pitot tubes could lead to a conviction for Airbus in France.
https://medium.com/crash-investigators/faulty-pitot-tubes-could-lead-to-a-conviction-for-airbus-in-france-5fa5344936d0
Final Report On the accident on 1st June 2009 to the Airbus A330-203 registered F-GZCP operated by Air France flight AF 447 Rio de Janeiro - Paris
https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601.en/pdf/f-cp090601.en.pdf
Relevant: Pilot vs Plane - Air France Flight 447
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_kGi_k4G1k
“In a million miles you’re going to maybe fly this airplane, and maybe once you’re going to see this ever.”
Astonishing. This is grossly negligent. It’s an admission it will happen, then it happened twice within months.
Somebody NEEDS to go to prison. Probably more than one. There are probably engineers that should be punished too - they’re the ones that should have outed this.
But my neighbor, who is a Southwest Captain, and actually flies the MAX, says there are two switches right at hand to immediately “kill” a runaway trim problem, and a big manual stabilizer trim wheel too. He says the basic problem is poorly trained pilots who are unable to fly the plane via basic flight instruments and controls.
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