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To: rustbucket; Bubba Ho-Tep; DiogenesLamp

“He sent warships, soldiers, and supplies to Fort Sumter knowing that the South would fire on those ships and/or attack the fort.”

Knowing? How can any human KNOW what the other side in a conflict will do?

Lincoln had been in office for a month. On 1 April, his Sec of State (Seward) recommended evacuating Ft Sumter peacefully and declaring war on Spain and France to unify America. Happily, Lincoln ignored him. ( http://housedivided.dickinson.edu/sites/lincoln/lincoln-responds-to-seward-april-1-1861/ )

“I would demand explanations from Spain and France categorically at once. I would demand explanations from Britain ... and send agents into Canada and Mexico and Central America to raise a vigorous continental spirit of independence on this continent against European intervention. And if satisfactory explanations are not received from Spain and France, we would convene Congress and declare war against them.”

The idea that Lincoln was a master plotter with an organized government and a sneaky plan to start a war is just silly. He was getting conflicting advice from Gen Scott. Seward was off on a ridiculous tangent. His Sec of War was the corrupt and just installed Simon Cameron: “His corruption was so notorious that US Representative Thaddeus Stevens (also from Pennsylvania), when asked whether Cameron would steal, said: “I don’t think that he would steal a red hot stove.”[1] (Cameron demanded Stevens retract this insult. Stevens said to Lincoln “I believe I told you he would not steal a red-hot stove. I will now take that back.”)” - Wiki

One of the warships intended to protect the Ft Sumter resupply was sent elsewhere when Lincoln mistakenly signed the order in a stack of paperwork. When he tried to change the order, Seward signed the counter order - and it was ignored because Seward couldn’t override Lincoln!

And yet...supposedly Lincoln used mind control to make SC attack a Fort that would have needed to be evacuated anyways.


741 posted on 05/10/2019 12:25:13 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools)
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To: Mr Rogers
Knowing? How can any human KNOW what the other side in a conflict will do?

Yes, it would be a complete and total mystery to understand how people would react if you sent warships with orders to fire cannons at them if they didn't cooperate.

Yeah, that's a real head scratcher, far beyond the ken of mere mortal man!

You need to grow up. Lincolns' own cabinet quite accurately predicted what would happen if Lincoln sent those ships. Major Anderson, upon hearing of the Fox plan immediately said it would start a war and his heart would not be in it.

Stop with this childish attempt to pretend you don't understand 1+1=2.

Lincoln knew fully well what would happen. He also knew fully well what would happen when Porter opened fire on those confederate shore batteries and those confederate ships.

Stop trying to cover up for Lincoln. It's unbecoming for a man to lie about something so clearly comprehensible.

One of the warships intended to protect the Ft Sumter resupply was sent elsewhere when Lincoln mistakenly signed the order in a stack of paperwork. When he tried to change the order, Seward signed the counter order - and it was ignored because Seward couldn’t override Lincoln!

You talk about me not understanding history! You are completely wrong on some very serious points.

Lincoln did not accidentally sign an order. He wrote out hand written sealed orders to both Porter and Captain Mercer about what he wanted the Powhatan to do. Mercer's orders are public. Lincoln deliberately relieved him of command and put a Lieutenant (two ranks lower than Captain in that era's ranking system) in charge of his ship. Mercer felt utterly humiliated even though Lincoln tried to soft coat it.

Porter's sealed orders have never been revealed, and Porter has only given hints about what he was instructed to do. Make no mistake, Lincoln did not send Porter to Pensacola by accident. It was quite deliberate, and if you had bothered to read Porter's account of what happened, you wouldn't try to pretend that Lincoln mistakenly signed a paper in a stack of documents.

Taking control of the Powhatan to stop the Mission to Charleston from attacking and then having the Powhatan open fire on confederates and their ships in Florida, was no accident.

749 posted on 05/10/2019 9:34:41 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: Mr Rogers
[me]: He sent warships, soldiers, and supplies to Fort Sumter knowing that the South would fire on those ships and/or attack the fort.

[you]: Knowing? How can any human KNOW what the other side in a conflict will do?

Here is what Governor Pickens told Ward Hill Lamon, Lincoln's personal representative, in March. Lamon assured the Governor that Fort Sumter was to be evacuated [Source: "Recollections of Abraham Lincoln" by Ward Hill Lamon, my bold below]:

My interview with Governor Pickens was, to me, a memorable one. After saying to him what President Lincoln had directed me to say, a general discusion took place. [The Governor said the following at the meeting] Nothing can prevent war except the acquiescence of the President of the United States in secession and his unalterable resolve not to attempt any reinforcement of the Southern forts. ... Let your President attempt to reinforce Sumter and the tocsin of war will be sounded from every hill-top and valley in the South.

The Governor was quite agreeable to having the fort evacuated. The Governor's account included the following [my bold below]:

In a very few days after, another confidential agent, Colonel Lamon, was sent by the President, who informed me that he had come to try and arrange for the removal of the garrison, and, when he returned from the fort, asked if a war vessel could not be allowed to remove them. I replied, that no war vessel could be allowed to enter the harbor on any terms. He said he believed Major Anderson preferred an ordinary steamer, and I agreed that the garrison might be thus removed. He said he hoped to return in a very few days for that purpose.

There were earlier indications of the attitude of South Carolinians about the forts. From Major Anderson to the Adjutant-General of the Army in Washington on December 1, 1860 [From the Official Records; my bold again]:

Captain Seymour, just returned from the city, reports that the excitement there is very great. Col. E. B. White and other gentlemen, with whom he conversed, stated that the people of Charleston would not allow another man or any kind of stores to be landed at or for these forts. They say that anything which indicates a determination on the part of the General Government to act with an unusual degree of vigor in putting these works in a better state of defense will be regarded as an act of aggression, and will, as well as either of the other acts mentioned above, cause an attack to be made on this fort [Fort Moultrie].

754 posted on 05/11/2019 8:42:09 AM PDT by rustbucket
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