Posted on 01/11/2019 5:16:40 AM PST by TexasGunLover
As I posted last night, your trolling has come to an end here. We’ve gone over all we need to go over and repeated the same old same old as many times as we’re going to in the 600+ pages of this thread and in numerous previous threads. You’ll just have to try to waste somebody else’s time if you want to continue this. Buh bye.
Your repetitive responding to respond in order to waste as much time as possible while failing to read and/or just claiming any source that is inconvenient for your arguments has likewise come to an end. Buh Bye.
Your repetitive responding to respond in order to waste as much time as possible while failing to read and/or just claiming any source that is inconvenient for your arguments has likewise come to an end. Buh Bye.
It' like I am talking to a child. Where does the North *GET* the European currency to *PAY* for imports?
How did the North obtain European money?
I know exactly how you feel.
How did the North obtain European money?
What makes you think they didn't exchange U.S. money for European money?
Agreed. No more to be gained in dealing with the likes of you.
I’m glad we could reach agreement on this. I just don’t think you have anything to actually contribute to the conversation.
And I can't imagine what could possibly be gained by carrying on a discussion with someone as ill-informed as you. So let's end it with these two bits of agreement. I'll continue to watch you post your nonsense and do my best to bite my tongue.
Sounds great. I won’t have to read any more of your ill informed/intellectually dishonest bullshit and you can save the time by trolling elsewhere.
An extraordinarily important point which I've tried now for years to explain to DiogenesLamp, with no success.
There's no doubt that cotton was a Southern product, and not just Southern, but Deep South, the first seven Confederate states, almost none grown elsewhere.
And cotton was ~50% of US exports, including gold & silver, so that part is true.
But beyond #1 cotton, nothing else qualifies as an exclusive "Southern product", not even #2, tobacco.
We know this because in 1861, when Confederate exports were excluded from Union statistics, tobacco exports fell only 15%.
That tells us tobacco exports were 85% produced in Border Union states.
So the issue here was never "Southern exports", but only one export, cotton.
Of course, if you lived in a cotton state, you might easily be forgiven for thinking of King Cotton as not just your "world" but your entire Universe, and anybody who didn't share your outlook, even a fellow slaveholder, was a hated "Northerner".
DoodleDawg: "what prevented U.S. shippers from bringing goods from London to Charleston, or London to New Orleans, if that was where the demand for those goods were?"
Nothing! And they certainly did that, to the tune of 6% of total US imports, including all ports of the future Confederacy.
DoodleDawg: "The tariff is paid by whoever ordered the goods and it's paid when those goods are landed. "
Well... actually no.
After the 1846 Warehousing Act, all imports could be landed and warehoused (bonded) duty free, with tariffs only paid when product was sold & shipped to customers.
The 1846 Warehousing Act was a huge boon to New York, which had lots of warehouses, so it must have been a product of those evil Northerners scheming to screw-over the South, right?
Noooo, the 1846 Warehousing Act was passed shortly after the 1846 Walker Tariff -- Southern Democrat acts proposed & supported by Southern Democrat President Polk (born in North Carolina, lived in Tennessee).
It reduced the previous rates passed by Whigs in 1842.
Unless you consider North Carolina and Tennessee part of "the North", Warehousing was in no way an effort by Northerners to screw over "the South".
Your repetitive responding to respond in order to waste as much time as possible while failing to read and/or just claiming any source that is inconvenient for your arguments is automatically untrue, has likewise come to an end. Buh Bye.
We tell them it's about money. Prominent Northern Newspapers of the time period tell them it's about money. They want to believe it's about slavery, and they completely ignore the fact that the Congress, both House and Senate, voted to make slavery virtually permanent, and the President urged this very amendment be passed in his Inaugural address.
They want to believe it's about freedom for slaves, because the sheer ugliness of people dying to protect the cash flow of the Wealthy powerbrokers who are still running things today, makes their ancestors into pawns who did the bidding of evil people.
The idea that people were duped into dying for a pretend noble cause, while the real reason was money, is repugnant.
But this appears to be what actually happened.
At some point it has to come back to trade. Gold and Silver reserves are not infinite, and nations are loath to part with specie if they can substitute exports.
What export gave the North sufficient European currency to pay for European imports?
They want to believe it's about freedom for slaves, because the sheer ugliness of people dying to protect the cash flow of the Wealthy powerbrokers who are still running things today, makes their ancestors into pawns who did the bidding of evil people.
The idea that people were duped into dying for a pretend noble cause, while the real reason was money, is repugnant.
But this appears to be what actually happened.
Oh they sold the average Joe Schmoe's who had to risk lie and limb that it was about nationalism first and foremost.....or some made up BS like "saving Democracy" like Lincoln tried to sell.....the funny thing is plenty have seen right through that one over the years.
“The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history... the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. But let us not forget that it is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it. Put it into the cold words of everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination – that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves.” HL Mencken
To the Europeans they tried the whole ending slavery gambit so as to make it politically impossible for their governments which had Confederate sympathies from entering the war on the side of the Confederacy.
Of course Southerners knew what was up.
"I tried all in my power to avert this war. I saw it coming, for twelve years I worked night and day to prevent it, but I could not. The North was mad and blind; it would not let us govern ourselves, and so the war came, and now it must go on till the last man of this generation falls in his tracks, and his children seize the musket and fight our battle, unless you acknowledge our right to self government. We are not fighting for slavery. We are fighting for Independence, and that, or extermination." - President Jefferson Davis The Atlantic Monthly Volume 14, Number 83
“And slavery, you say, is no longer an element in the contest.” Union Colonel James Jaquess
“No, it is not, it never was an essential element. It was only a means of bringing other conflicting elements to an earlier culmination. It fired the musket which was already capped and loaded. There are essential differences between the North and the South that will, however this war may end, make them two nations.” Jefferson Davis Davis rejects peace with reunion https://cwcrossroads.wordpress.com/2013/03/03/jefferson-davis-rejects-peace-with-reunion-1864/
Beginning in late 1862, James Phelan, Joseph Bradford, and Reuben Davis wrote to Jefferson Davis to express concern that some opponents were claiming the war "was for the defense of the institution of slavery" (Cooper, Jefferson Davis, American, pp. 479-480, 765). They called those who were making this claim "demagogues." Cooper notes that when two Northerners visited Jefferson Davis during the war, Davis insisted "the Confederates were not battling for slavery" and that "slavery had never been the key issue" (Jefferson Davis, American, p. 524).
“Every man should endeavor to understand the meaning of subjugation before it is too late… It means the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern schoolteachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit objects for derision… It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties.” Maj. General Patrick R. Cleburne, CSA, January 1864
It is the PC Revisionists in Academia who have revived wartime propaganda that it was "all about slavery" because it suits their politics. Firstly they Love Love LOVE big government. They hate decentralized power...as all socialists do. Therefore the federal government must always be on the side of virtue and the local yokels must always be backward, violent, corrupt, etc. Secondly, being mostly Yankees as well as Leftists they know full well that the South is the backbone of Conservatism in America. So any effort to demonize the South must be seized no matter how ridiculous and historically false it is. Its funny to see some Neocons embrace this BS in the name of nationalism...but then again they were Leftists to begin with and just seek to use America's military power to advance their own agenda.
PS. English Sources are particularly good reading. They themselves were abolitionists having gotten rid of slavery over 20 years earlier and stamped out the non US slave trading from Africa in the first half of the 19th century they nevertheless saw right through the Yankees feigned sympathy for blacks and were scathing about it.
"For the contest on the part of the North is now undisguisedly for empire. The question of slavery is thrown to the winds. There is hardly any concession in its favor that the South could ask which the North would refuse provided only that the seceding states re-enter the Union.....Away with the pretence on the North to dignify its cause with the name of freedom to the slave!" London Quarterly Review 1862
“The contest is really for empire on the side of the North, and for independence on that of the South, and in this respect we recognize an exact analogy between the North and the Government of George III, and the South and the Thirteen Revolted Provinces. These opinions…are the general opinions of the English nation.” London Times, November 7, 1861
" If it be not slavery, where lies the partition of the interests that has led at last to actual separation of the Southern from the Northern States? …Every year, for some years back, this or that Southern state had declared that it would submit to this extortion only while it had not the strength for resistance. With the election of Lincoln and an exclusive Northern party taking over the federal government, the time for withdrawal had arrived … The conflict is between semi-independent communities [in which] every feeling and interest [in the South] calls for political partition, and every pocket interest [in the North] calls for union. So the case stands, and under all the passion of the parties and the cries of battle lie the two chief moving causes of the struggle. Union means so many millions a year lost to the South; secession means the loss of the same millions to the North. The love of money is the root of this as of many other evils … the quarrel between North and South is, as it stands, solely a fiscal quarrel." – Charles Dickens, as editor of All the Year Round, a British periodical in 1862
“Any reasonable creature may know, if willing, that the North hates the Negro and until it was convenient to make a pretence that sympathy with him was the cause of the war, it hated the abolitionists and derided them up and down dale. As to secession being rebellion, it is distinctly possible by state papers that Washington considered it no such thing. Massachusetts now loudest against it, has itself asserted its right to secede again and again.” Charles Dickens.
“If the Northerners on ascertaining the resolution of the South, had peaceably allowed the seceders to depart, the result might fairly have been quoted as illustrating the advantages of Democracy; but when Republicans put empire above liberty, and resorted to political oppression and war rather than suffer any abatement of national power, it was clear that nature at Washington was precisely the same as nature at St. Petersburg. There was not, in fact, a single argument advanced in defense of the war against the South which might not have been advanced with exactly the same force for the subjugation of Hungary or Poland. Democracy broke down, not when the Union ceased to be agreeable to all its constituent States, but when it was upheld, like any other Empire, by force of arms.” Times of London September 1862:
"With what pretence of fairness, it is said, can you Americans object to the secession of the Southern States when your nation was founded on secession from the British Empire?" Cornhill Magazine, England 1861
"The Northern onslaught upon slavery was no more than a piece of specious humbug designed to conceal its desire for economic control of the Southern states." --Charles Dickens, 1862
"The Union government liberates the enemy’s slaves as it would the enemy’s cattle, simply to weaken them in the conflict. The principle is not that a human being cannot justly own another, but that he cannot own him unless he is loyal to the United States." --London Spectator, 1862
"Fate has indeed taken a malignant pleasure in flouting the admirers of the United States. It is not merely that their hopes of its universal empire have been disappointed; the mortification has been much deeper than this. Every theory to which they paid special homage has been successively repudiated by their favorite statesmen. They were Apostles of Free Trade: America has established a tariff, compared to which our heaviest protection-tariff has been flimsy. She has become a land of passports, of conscriptions, of press censorship and post-office espionage; of bastilles and lettres de cachet [this was a letter that bore an official seal which authorized the imprisonment, without trial of any person named in the letter] There was little difference between the government of Mr. Lincoln and the government of Napoleon III. There was the form of a legislative assembly, where scarcely any dared to oppose for fear of the charge of treason." the Quarterly Review in Britain
An 1862 editorial in an English journal commented, “They (the Northern white men) do not love the Negro as a fellow-man; they pity him as a victim of wrong. They will plead his cause; they will not tolerate his company.”
In 1862, one English publication issued the following commentary regarding the Emancipation Proclamation: “…But as time went on, and the issues of the war came out more clearly, this spring of Northern sympathies began to fail. It soon became apparent that the grievance of the South went very far beyond the mere refusal to allow slaves to be held in the territories of the United States, and it became still more clear that whatever the North was fighting for, it was not for the emancipation of the Negro. It was impossible to believe that the North was crusading for abolition, in the face of the President’s reiterated denials, and of the inhuman treatment which Negroes were constantly receiving at Northern hands. If anything was wanting to confirm their skepticism, it has been supplied. Emancipation to be a military resource of his extreme necessity, shows how little he cared for it as a philanthropist. He values it not for the freedom it may confer, but for the carnage that it may cause.”
Instead, the liberals mobilized against the integration amendment. . . .
"The Union government liberates the enemy’s slaves as it would the enemy’s cattle, simply to weaken them in the conflict. The principle is not that a human being cannot justly own another, but that he cannot own him unless he is loyal to the United States.”
London Spectator, October 11, 1862
How did the U.S. maintain the level of imports that they did during the rebellion and for years afterwards after the South destroyed itself and its cotton industry?
Haven't really looked at that question because it is irrelevant regarding the lead up to the war. Probably borrowing, and no, the South didn't destroy itself. People fighting for the money powers while pretending to love people they really hated, did that.
So how did the North acquire European currency in 1860? What did they export that earned them European cash in 1860?
Of course it is.
Probably borrowing...
Probably?
... and no, the South didn't destroy itself.
They initiated a war that led to their own destruction.
So how did the North acquire European currency in 1860? What did they export that earned them European cash in 1860?
Same way they did in 1862...and 1863...and 1864...and 1865...and 1866...and 1867...
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