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Trump suggests France would have been defeated without U.S.
The Columbian ^ | November 13, 2018 | Darlene Superville, The Associated Press

Posted on 11/13/2018 10:53:06 AM PST by 2ndDivisionVet

President Donald Trump escalated his verbal assaults against France on Tuesday, suggesting that America’s stalwart European ally would have been vanquished in both world wars if not for the military firepower provided by the United States.

Trump tweeted about a suggestion by French President Emmanuel Macron that Europe build up its militaries because the continent can no longer depend on the U.S. for defense. Macron had also said Europe needs to protect itself against cyberthreats from China, Russia and the U.S.

Macron’s comments were inaccurately reported and Trump continues to misrepresent them, seemingly for political hay. The French leader’s office said Trump had lumped together Macron’s remarks on protecting against cyber-threats and “interference in our democracies” from “China, Russia and even the United States” with Macron’s later statement on military defense....

(Excerpt) Read more at columbian.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: france; macron; trump; ww2
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To: Spok

Stalin didn’t think so. He once told Khrushchev that alone the USSR could not have stood up to the concentrated pressure of the Reich.


101 posted on 11/13/2018 1:22:55 PM PST by robowombat (Orthodox)
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To: robowombat

DeGaulle also caused a big stink when he visited Montréal and said, “Vive le Québec libre !”


102 posted on 11/13/2018 1:24:12 PM PST by dfwgator (Endut! Hoch Hech!)
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To: semantic
Which is why I always say that WWII was lost the day Hitler took power.

For an alternative time-line, what if a nationalist leader had not only *not persecuted the Jews*, but had co-opted them much like our very own neo-cons?

What if all the leading Jewish scientists - like Einstein - had not only stayed, but were active in the war effort? Heck, Germany might have had atomic weapons before 1939.

If so, it would have been game, set & match.

103 posted on 11/13/2018 1:27:34 PM PST by semantic
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To: DesertRhino

Without Lend-Lease the Soviets would have lost. At least, that’s what Stalin said.


104 posted on 11/13/2018 1:30:58 PM PST by FreedomForce
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To: dfwgator
More than a big stink. Under DeGaulle the French Foreign Ministry and the intel agencies funneled a lot of money to the separatists and tried as hard as they could to encourage the Quebec government to declare independence. DeGaulle could not stand the demotion of France to a second or third rate power.
105 posted on 11/13/2018 1:31:15 PM PST by robowombat (Orthodox)
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To: adorno
I'd give the President the benefit of the doubt and assume he's referring to the First World War and the role US forces played in stopping the last great German offensive in 1918, thus preventing the French from losing to the Germans twice in the twentieth century, or three times in less than one hundred years (when you include the Franco-Prussian dust up in 1870). Last Sunday's commemoration of the Nov. 11, 1918 Armistice in France and Trump's presence there is context.
106 posted on 11/13/2018 1:31:56 PM PST by katana
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To: semantic

The irony was if you looked at Europe at the time WWI started, you could make the case that Germany was the least anti-semitic country in Europe.


107 posted on 11/13/2018 1:33:00 PM PST by dfwgator (Endut! Hoch Hech!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I think the President is referring to the 1914-1918 France, as in the Great War, War to End All Wars (LOL), or, as we now call it, World War I.


108 posted on 11/13/2018 1:35:42 PM PST by Alas Babylon! (Boycott ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC and NBC!)
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To: semantic

The Germans were close to atomic weapons. It was one of Churchill’s biggest fears. He sent commandos on a series of daring raids aimed at sabotaging Hitler’s nuclear program wherever it was vulnerable to the Allies.

From: https://www.historyextra.com/period/second-world-war/the-third-reichs-nuclear-programme-churchills-greatest-wartime-fear/

William Stephenson, Churchill’s spymaster, would later say of those raiders: “If it had not been for [the saboteur’s] resolve, the Germans would have had the opportunity to devastate the civilised world. We would be either dead or living under Hitler’s zealots”.


109 posted on 11/13/2018 1:36:21 PM PST by BushCountry (thinks he needs a gal whose name doesn't end in ".jpg")
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To: semantic

I guess it’s reasonable to say that it’s hard to define “defeat” until there’s a formal ceremony, and obviously DeGaulle didn’t think Petain had any weight to speak for the entire nation so long as a defense could be mounted from...Martinique?! (being coy there...there was always Algeria!).

But I think territorially the Wehrmacht won more then just a tactical skirmish line. Occupying Paris and all the way to the sea in Brittany is pretty convincing.

And saying they were defeated in WWI is certainly stretching it more: that was really a strategic stalemate and nothing more, that was when the French army was still formidable. But being bled white very rapidly...

So I can agree with some criticism of the blanket statement I made, but we can all agree that real defeat would have been permanent had not the real allies - England, America and Russia - been in the fight.

And yes, it was a matter of time before the twin programs of the fission bomb and the bomber to deliver it would have decisively ended the argument. So a view from 30,000 ft would be “they have a lot of ground, but it won’t help them in the end” is reasonable.

Germany is lucky that the 3rd Army punched through into the Rhineland when they did. Had they not, Berlin would have been the first place on the planet to be turned into a radioactive cinder.


110 posted on 11/13/2018 1:40:53 PM PST by Regulator
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To: Spok

If the U.S. hadn’t supplied the Soviet Union with materiel, I doubt the Germans would have failed in the east even with Germany having to fight in the west.


111 posted on 11/13/2018 1:43:24 PM PST by FreedomForce
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

France WAS defeated by Germany in 1940, and in just six weeks!


112 posted on 11/13/2018 1:51:07 PM PST by ought-six (Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule.)
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To: DesertRhino

Germany probably couldn’t have won....but without western aid, The Soviet Union wouldn’t have won either. They could have pushed the Germans back, but couldn’t have sustained any offensives into Central Europe. The result would’ve been a very bloody stalemate.


113 posted on 11/13/2018 1:57:58 PM PST by FLT-bird
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To: Regulator
The ultimate question is: what actually constitutes "defeat"? Is there a time line? If so, how long is it? For instance, today Germany completely controls the continent. France goes along as their side kick, with the two countries combined proving to be in the same (economic) league as the other primary spheres, such as the US & China.

I've traveled pretty extensively throughout Europe, and much to my wife's boredom, I usually zero in on their respective military museums. And what is perhaps most striking is that *no one* every gets the "permanent" jump on anyone else. Every major country has experienced both victory and loss. Oh sure, they may be down for a hundred years or so, but then the tables get turned.

And then, if one wants to get really philosophical, consider the Roman republic/empire, which last for almost 1k years in the west, and 2k if we count the east. To what extent did they impart a lasting influence? Law, language, customs? But holding territory, enforcing laws, imposing tribute/taxes - all dust in the wind.

Same true in Europe today - defeated the Moslems 400 years ago - but now subject to invasion and control. And yet, time doesn't stop here either, because a backwards Islamic country in 100-200 years will be ripe pickings from an technologically advanced country like, say a combined Polish/Czech/Hungarian force.

114 posted on 11/13/2018 1:59:42 PM PST by semantic
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

It’s pretty obvious the Germans would have defeated the British and the French without America. Even with America’s help, it’s not like the Germans were resoundly defeated. The war was never taken to Germany.


115 posted on 11/13/2018 2:03:57 PM PST by Crucial
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To: dfwgator

We gave the Russians lots of aid don’t kid yourself


116 posted on 11/13/2018 2:32:17 PM PST by Phil DiBasquette
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To: faithhopecharity

It wasn’t always so..,France helped Israel with nukes


117 posted on 11/13/2018 2:33:45 PM PST by Phil DiBasquette
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To: JohnBrowdie

Exactly. They were defeated easily. We rescued them.


118 posted on 11/13/2018 2:40:11 PM PST by foghornleghorn
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To: dfwgator

That speech ignited the separatist movement and made the
Québécois think France would reunite with them

Meanwhile 300 years of non-union left their French in a
rustic state

Frenchmen come to visit and laugh at their patois


119 posted on 11/13/2018 2:50:42 PM PST by Phil DiBasquette
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To: DesertRhino

“Not really. The war on the Eastern Front had already turned bad for the Germans by the time Pearl Harbor hit.”

Thanks to Lend Lease and all the other aid. Russia would’ve starved to death long before they took Germany had we not been footing the bill. It was Russian made tanks that rolled into Berlin but it was American machines that built them and American trucks and train engines that were hauling the gas and food to keep them moving.

Germany stomped Russia and would’ve kept stomping had we not helped them completely rebuild their industry on the other side of the Urals. Russians would’ve starved to death trying to rebuild if not for the colossal amount of food we sent.


120 posted on 11/13/2018 3:05:23 PM PST by TalonDJ
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