As I understand it--- correct me if I'm wrong --- you're saying a person who is lost, was never saved. That is true per definition, ~IF~ you define saved as incapable of being lost.
It brings us around in a circle, since if a person says he is saved, and believes he is saved, turns out to be finally impenitent, he is lost and never was saved. He ought not to have said he was: it is presumptuous.
Per definition, the sin of presumption is saying you're now saved no matter what you do. The similar but opposite sin of despair is saying you're now damned no matter what you do.
That's why Catholics generally don't talk about being "saved." It is because that determination is made only at judgment upon the moment of death. Then it is final and ireversible: and it is Christ who judges. We don't even judge ourselves.
1 Cor 4:3-4
I care very little if I am judged
by you or by any human court;
indeed, I do not even judge myself.
My conscience is clear,
but that does not make me innocent.
It is the Lord who judges me.
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time;
wait until the Lord comes.
Well,m with the plethora of Catholic claims of "special revelation" some might claim to fit thru a loophole.
No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in [Page 40] the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself. [Trent, The Sixth Session, CHAPTER XII, http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06.html]
. No one can be absolutely certain of his or her salvation unless--as to Magdalen, to the man with the palsy, or to the penitent thief--a special revelation be given (Trent, Sess. VI, can. xvi). http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm
However, although the "no true Scotsman" reasoning seem to apply to the final perseverance OSAS. one can know that they no have eternal life, and can attain to a condition in which they will never fall as they walk therein.
These things [4+ chapters] have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:10-11)
“Per definition, the sin of presumption is saying you’re now saved no matter what you do.
Not something from Scripture, but from Roman religion.
Yes, a person who ends up in Hell, was never saved in the first place. Jesus will not say “I knew you once, but later I didn’t know you” No, Jesus says, “I NEVER knew you. They were lost from the beginning.
It brings us around in a circle, since if a person says he is saved, and believes he is saved, turns out to be finally impenitent, he is lost and never was saved. He ought not to have said he was: it is presumptuous.
I don’t get into presumption. It’s something I never worry about. There are millions of people who think they are saved, claim they are saved, and go on through life this way, who are going to be utterly shocked when they wake up in Hell. Again, He will say, “I NEVER knew you.”
Per definition, the sin of presumption is saying you're now saved no matter what you do. The similar but opposite sin of despair is saying you're now damned no matter what you do.
Again, I am not concerned with presumption. It’s not important to me. Now, despair might be closer to the truth. We are all truly damned, no matter what we do. That I agree with. As Dan says, until one realizes they are a poor, lost, damned destitute sinner, without one single, solitary ray of hope, one will never be saved.
That's why Catholics generally don't talk about being "saved." It is because that determination is made only at judgment upon the moment of death.
I totally, completely, 💯% disagree with that statement. We can know right here and now we are saved. If someone waits till they die, to see if they “attain” Heaven, it is an iron clad guarantee that they will wake up in Hell. Absolutely guaranteed.
My opinion (just my opinion) is that 97 to 98% of the world’s population, will end up in Hell. Not very good odds. That is why we are to enter through the strait gate. Not many people will go to Heaven.
Since the sin of presumption is a Catholic fabrication, of which there is no mention in Scripture, then I guess that the Catholic organization can define it however they wish.
But you're attempts to show that someone who was saved can lose their salvation have failed.
A person cannot lose what they never had to begin with.
A person can die full of sorrow for their sin, and I'm sure many do, but that is still not an indication that they were ever saved or ever trusted Christ.
What you're basically talking about is a works based salvation, one that can be gained or lost based on merit.
Since salvation is NOT by merit in the least, either getting saved or staying saved, one cannot lose it by what their merit.