What Might Civil War Be Like?

American Thinker ^ | December 20, 2017 | E.M. Cadwaladr

[fwdude]

Really, most Americans just aren't that into politics (or war), and more power to them.

Really? War WILL come to them eventually, making demands that impact their lives. It's the nature of the beast.

[Wonder Warthog]

"If/when push came to shove, they will side with those representing the Constitution."

Since both sides will claim to be doing so, how the individual military will decide seems quite an open question.

[BroJoeK]

Wonder Warthog: "Since both sides will claim to be doing so, how the individual military will decide seems quite an open question."

No it won't, because only one side will be obviously correct.
The military cannot obey unlawful orders, period.

[Wonder Warthog]

"No it won't, because only one side will be obviously correct. The military cannot obey unlawful orders, period."

I repeat, how will they know which side's orders are legal??

At the beginning of the American Revolution, both sides initially thought they were "upholding the natural rights of Englismen" that the English Crown was overstepping. It wasn't until Parliament made it plain that the only way for the colonists to retain those rights was actual revolution advocated. Ben Franklin spent a LOT of time and effort to bring Parliament around, and ultimately failed.

What criteria will the individual service member use to decide?? The Nuremberg trials have already tossed out the "I was just following orders" defense.

I've not been in the military, so I have no background in the subject.

[DiogenesLamp]

Create a nearly impenetrable blockade then cut power and take out the sewage treatment plants. In less than a month they will be mostly dead from disease.

Modern cities are far more vulnerable than cities in 1860. It wouldn't take an army to bring a city to it's knees. Small bands of insurgents could knock out essential systems. American cities are simply not expected to deal with enemies at the gate.

It's virtually impossible to protect essential systems. We've relied too long on the idea that Oceans are our walls.

[DiogenesLamp]

Today we have the upper hand, thank you Mr. Trump. In two years, four years or eight years... who the h*ll knows?

Virginia and Florida are turning "blue". If those states go, it's over. We will be launched into the Socialist/Crony-Capitalist/establishment system ran by people mostly in New York and Washington DC.

The original civil war will have finally reached it's apex.

[BroJoeK]

Wonder Warthog: "I repeat, how will they know which side's orders are legal??"

Which side??
How can there be "two sides"?
Was there a constitutionally approved election, were constitutional procedures followed as intended?
Then there is only one side, not two.

So, what, do you dispute the election, claiming it was "rigged" by "collusion" with who, Russians?
And you have legally valid data to support that, or just "collusion, collusion, collusion" propaganda on your brain?

So you dispute the election, your constitutional recourses are through Congress (impeachment) or the courts, which can overturn rigged elections & force new ones.
But suppose you don't really dispute the election (i.e., 2008) but dislike the results?
Well, your constitutional recourse is to form a new movement (i.e., Tea Party) and vote in more opposition party members to Congress, in two years.
In four years you can vote in a new president.

But what if, oh dear, you just can't wait even two years?
The perceived threat is sooooooooo great you just can't wait a moment longer, what will you do?

Well, remember, on your side you have your local & state governments, your representatives in Congress and a judiciary largely devoted to protecting the Constitution.
Minority Democrats have used those to slow down majority Republicans in such matters as the "Muslim ban" and sanctuary cities.
You can also use them to slow down the majority when/if ever the roles get reversed.

Wonder Warthog: "It wasn't until Parliament made it plain that the only way for the colonists to retain those rights was actual revolution advocated.
Ben Franklin spent a LOT of time and effort to bring Parliament around, and ultimately failed."

Exactly, and what remotely similar circumstances do you fantasize for the near-term future?

Wonder Warthog: "What criteria will the individual service member use to decide??
The Nuremberg trials have already tossed out the "I was just following orders" defense."

The US military will always follow lawful orders from the constitutionally valid federal government.

Wonder Warthog: "I've not been in the military, so I have no background in the subject."

I have and do, though it was decades ago.
To the degree the US military is not corrupted by the Leftist socialist agenda, you can depend on it to follow lawful orders from our constitutional government, and none others.

[Wonder Warthog]

"Exactly, and what remotely similar circumstances do you fantasize for the near-term future?"

When and if a leftist Democrat federal government issues orders for any federal government organ to seize citizen firearms, there WILL be war. This is "the" thing that the left most dearly wants...an unarmed populace. Elected or no, this IS a clear violation of the Constitution. "IF" the military chooses to participate in such action, legally voted or not, "I" would certainly consider them to be acting on illegal orders, and would aim accordingly.

[Wonder Warthog]

Addendum....if Hillary had been elected, I believe that the “disarmament agenda” would have been a high priority.

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "Virginia and Florida are turning "blue".
If those states go, it's over.
We will be launched into the Socialist/Crony-Capitalist/establishment system ran by people mostly in New York and Washington DC. "

Going back to 1992, Florida & Virginia both supported the losing Republican (a good test of loyalty) -- that was Pappy Bush vs. "Zippers" Clinton.
In 1996 Florida still went red for loser Dole, but Virginia blue winner Clinton, and since then Florida consistently voted the winner (Sonny Bush, Obama, Trump) while Virginia remained loyal blue Democrat throughout.

Point is, you have to go back to 1992 to see the last time both Florida and Virginia voted for a losing Republican (a good test of loyalty) and to 2004 for the last time Virginia voted for any Republican presidential candidate.

1992 election, Pappy Bush. vs Zippers Clinton:

[BroJoeK]

Wonder Warthog: "When and if a leftist Democrat federal government issues orders for any federal government organ to seize citizen firearms, there WILL be war."

Pure fantasy, unless you refer to cities like Chicago today.

Democrat-run Chicago already has the nation's strictest gun laws but five-times the national average murder rate.
As a result many thousands of illegal guns are seized each year and thousands arrested for illegal possession.
Is that a "civil war"?
Some have even called for the United Nations to intervene in Chicago and President Trump long ago offered Federal help to Democrat Mayor Emanuel, not accepted so far as I know.

Result: Chicago has five times the national average murder rate and, where nationally crime trends down, in Chicago it only gets worse.

Is that then the CWII you imagine, and if so, which side are you on?

[DiogenesLamp]

Point is, you have to go back to 1992 to see the last time both Florida and Virginia voted for a losing Republican (a good test of loyalty) and to 2004 for the last time Virginia voted for any Republican presidential candidate.

From what I have been reading, all the demographic changes are favoring the Democrats. Florida is going to get harder to win every year, and without winning Florida, it is virtually impossible for a Republican candidate to build a winning coalition of states.

There is fear that Texas is also slowly moving towards the Democrats.

[papertyger]

But that only works until law enforcement realizes they've been used as partisan political weapons.

Seems to me the police had no real problem being used as partisan political weapons, indeed even as political TARGETS, so long as their benefits package remained secure.

No, the only way to get the police to become "patriots" is to demonstrate to them they will be hunted and harassed to the end of their days for stepping on bourgeois faces.

[Qiviut]

My bad. Post/link removed.

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "There is fear that Texas is also slowly moving towards the Democrats."

Got it, but that may help explain why our candidate this time appealed so strongly to working Americans of all ethnicities.
If he can win them, and hold them, then demographics will not be the long-term problem you suppose.

With prosperity comes employment, with employment comes self-respect, self-reliance & family values.
With those comes a willingness to listen to Republican ideas on how to extend & increase prosperity, and less attention to Democrat identity victimhood nostrums.

That's why Democrats so adamantly oppose prosperity -- with real prosperity who needs or wants Democrats?
But like Reagan with the old Soviets, our president has a new idea about how to deal with Democrats: we win, they lose.

I love it.

[DiogenesLamp]

Got it, but that may help explain why our candidate this time appealed so strongly to working Americans of all ethnicities. If he can win them, and hold them, then demographics will not be the long-term problem you suppose.

I'm thinking Post Trump. Will the next candidate be able to keep the Trump Coalition? I don't know, but the demographics are arguing against it. New Yorkers moving South are going to overturn a lot of the existing Republican support by sheer numbers.

[BroJoeK]

I am not anti-police and don't believe for a moment they wish to mess with law-abiding voters.
They don't, be certain of that.

But like anyone else "in uniform" they need, must have, good leadership.
It's said a fish rots from its head, and rotten leadership can corrupt the best of organizations.

[BroJoeK]

DL: "I'm thinking Post Trump."

Yes, in my lifetime we've seen two great Republican presidents, Reagan & Trump**, though it's a bit early to say exactly how great Trump can make America.
So how long before we see another such?
I have no idea, just pray it's not so long it's too late.

Important also to remember that Democrats live for government, since they don't believe in anything or One higher, they worship ever bigger government.
Political victory or defeat, doesn't matter to them, their goal is constant: more government.
When Democrats think of government, they think community action & welfare, punish "the rich" to support their voters.

By sharp contrast, conservatives mostly just want government out of their hair, as much as possible.
When we think of government it's of law enforcement and national defense, which we'll willingly serve, but otherwise, the less government the better.
So when government is in good hands, we just want to get on with life.

That makes the Left a constant force for ever bigger government, conservatives only occasionally roused enough to push them back.

The results are what we see...

** I'd also defend Eisenhower & Nixon, up to a point, and even the Bushes as good men, possibly in over their heads...
And I even liked Ford, well deserves his aircraft carrier class.
Democrat Kennedy I didn't like at all at the time, today fell somewhat better about, especially compared to today's Dems.

[Wonder Warthog]

Go back and re-read my comment:

"When and if a leftist Democrat federal government issues orders for any federal government organ to seize citizen firearms, there WILL be war."

Chicago isn't federal, and thus doesn't fall into the category of rights violation I am referring to.

As to which side I'm on......it is the one that thinks any law-abiding citizen should be allowed to own and carry whatever weaponry he damned well pleases, anywhere he pleases...just as the original intent of the Second Amendment recognized.

As did the bills of rights of the individual states before the Constitution was promulgated(and yes, I have looked them all up and read them).

[x]

It might bear some geographic similarities to the Spanish Civil War of the 1930s, but the affects on the populace will be much more akin to the pogroms of the French Revolution.

What would happen if the Spanish Civil War or the French Revolution happened today?

You'd see a blizzard of tweets about Franco's potbelly, receding chin, and hairline, about whether La Passionaria was hot or not and whether she puts out, about whether Lafayette was a groper or gay or what, and about just what the heck Robespierre's problem was.

Nowadays stuff gets talked to death before anything happens. And that's not a bad thing. Troubled times may come, but fighting in the streets and mass executions -- not so much. Of course, that's assuming that the economy and our way of life doesn't completely collapse.