Posted on 01/03/2016 4:13:57 PM PST by Kaslin
There’s a lot going on as regards the standoff in Oregon involving three of Cliven Bundy’s sons and the federal government. Jazz has already offered his opinion on the matter, and I mostly agree with him. But I’m not sure the term “armed troops†is appropriate to describe Bundy’s group because that suggests they’re in tactical gear. That doesn’t appear to be true based off what Ammon Bundy’s video posted on Facebook.
Standing for the rights of men & womenBREAKING! SHARE! Standing for the rights of Men & Women. Calling all freedom loving people to come to Harney County Oregon, come to the Malhuer Wildlife Refuge. The people are finally getting some good use out of a federal facility.
Posted by Bundy Ranch on Saturday, January 2, 2016
He repeated the comments to CNN this morning, calling his group "concerned citizens" who are acting to make sure ranchers have land for their children. It makes sense for Bundy to be concerned about ranchland, given what’s been going on with his father, but his methods are questionable because of how it can be spun in the media. The group showed foresight in taking over a remote, empty facility, but the way it’s being portrayed publicly is different. The Oregonian certainly seems to be ramping up the rhetoric against Bundy’s group (emphasis mine).
Among those joining Bundy in the occupation are Ryan Payne, U.S. Army veteran, and Blaine Cooper. Payne has claimed to have helped organize militia snipers to target federal agents in a standoff last year in Nevada. He told one news organization the federal agents would have been killed had they made the wrong move.
He has been a steady presence in Burns in recent weeks, questioning people who were critical of the militia’s presence. He typically had a holstered sidearm as he moved around the community.
The problem is The Oregonian is overblowing what Payne actually told Missoula Independent about what the “militia snipers” were doing during the Bundy Ranch situation last year.
“We locked them down,” Payne says. “We had counter-sniper positions on their sniper positions. We had at least one guy—sometimes two guys—per BLM agent in there. So, it was a complete tactical superiority. … If they made one wrong move, every single BLM agent in that camp would’ve died.”
That’s a lot different than the vague term "federal agents," and suggests Payne was just making sure his men could beat the Bureau of Land Management if it came to that. It’s also possible Payne was just bragging to puff up his own self-image, as BLM denied using snipers. But it’s ridiculous for The Oregonian to not provide better context to Payne’s statements. It’s also foolish to emphasize the fact Payne was armed whenever he talked to people. This may be a bit of a shock to the Left, but Oregon is an open carry state so Payne can carry a handgun without a problem. It doesn’t appear he was walking up to people, showing the gun and yelling, "WHO DO YOU SUPPORT?" but just carrying the gun for protection. It probably seemed odd to some people, but to others in rural Oregon it may not have been an issue. One thing which is an issue is the fact people in Burns don’t want Bundy’s group there. Bob Owens at BearingArms.com has a piece pointing this out, and how it could end up hurting more than helping.
These militiamen seem to be forgetting a key fact: a force opposing government only has a measure of philosophical legitimacy if the people want their support. In this instance, the Hammonds simply want to turn themselves on Monday and finish serving their time.
These militiamen need to stop attempting to hijack the Hammond case in an attempt to stay relevant, and let Dwight and Steven Hammond peacefully turn themselves in and finish serving their time.
So what happens if Bundy’s group decides to stick around and won’t leave the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge? Hopefully, not violence. This is where authorities need to show patience, and not do anything which ends up endangering the lives of anyone. Bundy’s group isn’t hurting people, and, at worst, is guilty of trespassing. Yes, they’re armed but that doesn’t mean SWAT needs to go rolling into the refuge or a drone be used to end the standoff. That would be the worst thing to happen, and bring back memories of Waco and Ruby Ridge. Federal and local authorities will just have to wait out Ammon Bundy and the rest of the occupiers, until they decide to leave. It may take a while, but it’s well worth it if no lives are lost. Bundy’s group needs to go, but having it happen through a haze of gun smoke and bodies is a bad idea.
It's the saddest way of admitting you've lost the argument.
And before that, the BLM harassed the Hammonds for a decade, closing their roads, taking them to court over water rights....the Hammonds won.
Make no mistake, the BLM is in the business of closing ranches and adding to their federal land stockpile in the west.
Too many creepers here are clueless about this assault on the west.
He says he was willing to pay the county.
However, he and the county both knew very well that the county did not own the land.
So he was pretending to be willing to pay someone who didn't own the land.
If I don't pay my landlord my rent, but tell him I am more than willing to pay my rent to a different landlord I like better, then there is a word for what I am.
Squatter.
They live in cities or places where they don’t get the rural land takeover happening in the west.
They think agenda 21 is a conspiracy theory even though it is all spelled out on the UN and many other websites.
They don’t take the time to read the entire story because of the Facebook mentality.
They see Bundy as backward and ignorant and assume the worst.
They don’t want to believe that things in this country are far far worse than most people think, or know that President Bush refused to sign at Rio.
They are hoping to remain in their snug homes watching their favorite shows and not have to worry about the fact that we are on the very edge of losing the country we grew up in, and it may already be too late.
The wife of the manager of the wildlife refuge took the Hammonds back to court. A convenient husband.wife team.
Earth first!!! Who cares about bullying and harrasing people on their own land for ten years? Not the BLM.
And...Unless property taxes ( government rents) are paid, the government landlord will prohibit the transfer of property to heirs unless the government rent ( taxes) is paid.
While I understand the historical context for your argument, is it appropriate in today's industrialized society to continue with property taxes?
Oh no, they see it as purposeful.
It will serve as a corridor under agenda 21.
Property rights looks like a good hill to me.
They are rapidly diminishing in the west.
The Bundys have never been about property rights.
They are all about squatting.
The Hammonds have a much better argument for their position than the Bundys ever did, but it doesn't look like they are the ones occupying federal land.
It looks like the Bundys are doing that for their own purposes and using the Hammonds as figurative human shields.
Also....High property taxes on businesses ( on equipment, land, and buildings) contribute to businesses moving their operations our of our country.
Personally, while historically property taxes served a purpose in an agricultural society, ( Land was essentially income) in an industrial society other forms of taxes would be more transparent to those who do ultimately pay them.
Property taxes distort the economy as well. My husband and I a perfect example. We have very deliberately planned where we live and the style in which we live in an effort to reduce paying rent ( property taxes) to the government landlord.
The government is obliged to defend their title to their property.
If property taxes were meant to provide the equivalent of 24 hour on-site armed security, the cost would be greater than the property itself.
You insure your property against loss.
But if someone takes over your property and claims it is theirs, the government has the obligation to remove them and assert your title.
Title is proof against seizure, not against burglary and arson.
You may want to read the link I posted to become more educated about the new contract the feds wanted him to sign when he paid. The one that enabled the BLM to shut down several neighboring ranches.
When corruption is the norm, Bundy is a hero.
US elected officials were there on the ranch to support him and help him get his cattle back.
Are you saying they supported a greedy squatter who just didn’t want to pay his grazing fees? All of those oath keepers just wanted Bundy to keep his fees? Pretty amazing.
So Matt Shea left his home in Spokane, Wa and drove to the Bundy ranch, camped there and supported the Bundys in order for them to not pay their fees?
An attorney and recipient of numerous medals, including the Bronze star.
I can keep going....but do you see how stupid you sound yet?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Shea
You realize that an argument based on the credentials of someone else isn't really an argument, right?
Rather than speculating on Matt Shea's state of mind, I'd like to see an explanation of how a mere offer to pay a third party is the same thing as paying one's actual counterparty.
Perhaps I sound stupid for asking for proof that 2 + 2 = 5, rather than just taking Matt Shea's word for it.
But I still want the proof, and until then I will stick with 2 + 2 = 4.
And all of these elected officials went to the Bundy ranch to support him as
a squatter?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Thorpe_(politician)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Townsend
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judy_Burges
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelli_Ward
You said squatting and now that I have shown you the many elected officials who went to the ranch, supposedly to support squatting, you can obviously see how ridiculous that accusation is.
Changing the subject doesn’t work.
Many elected officials in NYC testified on behalf of, and met with, the Lower East Side squatters in the 1980s.
They were still squatters.
I really don't care who the Bundys' fans are or were.
I care about the facts of the case.
And the fact is that the Bundys were using land they did not own without paying for it, and when they were called on it, they said they were wiling to pay people other than the owners on their own terms.
Did you testify at Kelli Ward's chemtrails hearings?
These Oregon fellows are in a Refuge.
Start calling them the Oregon Refugees every where you go.
Word Judo.
Laz, as always, I like your style.
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