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To: Ancesthntr
before you say, "but the Nazis weren't Christian, they certainly didn't ACT in a Christian way, they were pagans" (which, btw, is correct), let me assure you that without the constant drumbeat of anti-Jewish official teachings, literature and actions on the part of Christian authorities, what the Nazis did would not have been possible. Perhaps if you understood that, REALLY understood it, you might understand the lack of an open mind on the subject by Jews.

So REALLY understanding is agreeing with you? And Christianity is the inescapable root of Nazism?

Sell it somewhere else, you socialist tool pretending to be a Jew.

178 posted on 11/09/2015 12:35:44 PM PST by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: Talisker
So REALLY understanding is agreeing with you?

Uh, no, that's NOT what I said. If you bothered to try to understand, maybe then you'd have actually understood what I was telling you. I'll try this again, slowly, so that you have a shot at it:

"REALLY" understanding = actually attempting in good faith to understand why Jews get their hackles up about Christians trying to convert them - it is NOT agreeing with my theology, or anything of the sort. The reasons for Jews not liking discussions of this sort are actually quite simple:

1) It is insulting. What if I, or anyone else for that matter, came to you and told you that your entire set of spiritual beliefs was wrong, that all of your ancestors going back thousands of years were wrong, that ALL of them who've died since about 1,980 years ago are burning in Hell as we speak - but, hey, don't worry about it, I have JUST the religion for you. Not exactly the kind of thing that one looks forward to upon waking in the morning, is it?

2) The natural result of Jews stubbornly sticking to the faith of their ancestors, despite multiple attempts - ranging from very pleasant face-to-face discussions (which is how it ALWAYS starts) to literal torture - is to remove the veil of hatred in the person who is rebuffed (and the more sincere the belief of the person attempting the conversion, the harsher the reaction when rebuffed). This happened all over Europe. When "nice" didn't work, then more pressure was applied - ridicule them in public, accuse them of Deicide, etc. When that fails to convince them, you go to the next level: Jews are forbidden to own this, they can't be allowed in X profession, they can't have weapons to defend themselves and their families, etc. When that doesn't work, you start fining them, torching their homes or businesses, beating them. Then you start propagandizing the population against them, so that you (the rebuffed initiator of the process) don't have to do all of the hard work yourself, you let the illiterate peasants do the job. Later, you seize their wealth and expel their entire community. Last, of course, if you've skipped the "expel them all" option (or inadvertently acquired a bunch of them through conquest), you kill them in great numbers - but not you, the guy at the end of 10 or 30 or 50 generations of this process, the one who doesn't know anything besides hatred of this group of people who reject his "savior" (who, oh so ironically, was part of this same demonized group and who would likely have resisted any attempt at conversion with equal stubbornness).

THIS is why Jews don't like even to hear about Christians trying to convert us - because it NEVER ends well, quite to the contrary.

And Christianity is the inescapable root of Nazism?

I most specifically did NOT equate Christianity with Nazism. I though that it was pretty clear that I said that it WAS paganism. However, just so that you understand, here IS what I meant: Without the precondition of well over 1,000 years of Church-inspired Jew-hatred in Europe, the ease with which the Nazis were able to plan and implement the Holocaust would NOT have existed - and, IMHO, it would never have occurred. Jews were demonized in Europe LONG, LONG before the Adolf Hitler's 10th great grandfathers were born - so the Nazis didn't do that, did they. But who WAS the power in Europe for most of that 1,000+ year time frame? If your answer was "The Catholic Church" then you'd be correct.

No, the Church never advocated the genocide of the Jews. Probably none except a very small handful of mentally-defective (or possessed) officials within the Church ever did so (or wished it so). But the Church DID demonize the Jews to such a degree, and for so long a period of time, that when the time came there wasn't so much outright resistance and, in fact, there was quite a bit of cooperation. But don't believe me, read it for yourself: "The Anguish of the Jews" by Edward Flannery, a Roman Catholic priest. It was written in 1965, but there is a 2004 updated version if you want to read that. Here is part of what one of the reviewers said:

"At the outset, the author claims that the vast majority of even well educated Christians have been relatively ignorant of what has happened to the Jews throughout history and the culpable involvement of many facets of the Church. Apart from a few recent publications, little having been included about anti-Semitism in Christian history books or social studies.

The author states that, by comparison, the Jews themselves are largely & acutely aware of their painful history in such matters."

The thoughts in the last 2 paragraphs are a large part of what I have been trying to communicate to you.

Sell it somewhere else, you socialist tool pretending to be a Jew.

Socialist tool? Wow, a little touchy, aren't we? As if a thoroughly discredited and theft-based economic theory has got anything to due with the history of Christian-Jewish relations. FYI, my paternal grandfather ran from Russia to this country right after the Communist revolution. His father had all of his property confiscated, except for the house he and his family lived in. My grandfather continued to send charity to his family for the remainder of his life, so miserable was life under the violent socialists (otherwise known as "Communists"). No, I'm no Socialist tool, I despise that entire ideology with every fiber of my being.

As for "pretending" to be a Jew - I don't have to answer to you or any other human being about my faith and my practice, only to G-d Himself. But in the interest of providing full information, I attend an Orthodox Jewish synagogue virtually every Sabbath (and on many other days, as well), I pray daily and I keep kosher at home, and to the greatest extent possible outside my home.

All that I was doing was pointing out the natural result of over 1,000 years of Christian anti-Semitism, the root cause of which is the Jews' rejection of the Christian world view, and you go off the deep end. I get it: if you're catching lots of flak, you must be over the target. I got a lot of your flak, so....

You know, I don't blame any person alive today for the deeds of their parents, grandparents or 34th great grandparents - we are each responsible to each other and to G-d for our own actions. But failing to acknowledge FACTS - even ones that make you cringe with shame - about people or institutions that you care about...well, that's just moral cowardice, probably with a dash of intellectual laziness or just old-fashioned ignorance. Maybe I'm characterizing you wrongly - I not only hope so, but if I am then I humbly apologize to you - but your words say otherwise.

181 posted on 11/09/2015 2:26:31 PM PST by Ancesthntr ("The right to buy weapons is the right to be free." A. E. van Vogt)
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