Posted on 09/26/2015 11:31:49 AM PDT by Jan_Sobieski
You mean speaking as a Secular Humanist. See my previous post. If you view Jesus as a secular humanist and one who thinks that Jesus mission was to make the world a political utopia, then you would have to conclude, as the Pope apparently does, that Jesus' true mission was cut short because he was crucified before he could set up a human paradise.
The Pope's apparent mission is to finish the job that Jesus could not finish due to his premature death in the cross.
LOL! When all else fails, cry BIGOT! That shuts down the discussion and makes you feel better about yourself. Arguing with you is like playing chess with a pigeon. The pigeon will just knock over all the pieces and then strut around like he won the game.
Nice try, Padre. FAIL!
I just googled your statement and I could not find a single Christian theologian who has ever lived who has referred to Christ's death as a "temporary victory for a sinful world over the Son of God."
Maybe I should google it in Latin?
You have called those of us who disagree with your interpretation of what the Pope clearly stated as Bigots. That means you have no legitimate argument. That means you lose.
Now if you can show us just one Christian theologian who claims that Jesus' death on the cross was a failure, then maybe we can take that theologian's arguments and put it to the test.
To say that every single Christian Theologian who has ever lived agrees with Pope Francis is a really big step in hyperbole when I'm betting you can't even find one.
Look up Anselm.
What did he say?
You’re such a whiz with Google. You look him up.
1 Pet 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
What did he say?
You didn’t ask me about the hope that is in me. You asked me about theologians.
I think you hope that Pope Francis is not a pretender to the throne.
So you're not willing to even attempt to back up your assertion that "Every Christian theologian who has ever lived has called Christ’s death a temporary victory for a sinful world over the Son of God."?
Instead you answer the question of even requesting you provide me with the statement of even one Christian Theologian who buys into the idea that Jesus was a temporary failure by calling the questioner an Anti-Catholic bigot?
Is that the way all Catholic priests respond to critical questions, or are you just an anomaly?
If I were to come to you at your parish and ask you to name just one Catholic Theologian who thought Jesus death on the cross was in any way a "failure", would you throw me out of your church and call me a bigot? Or would you follow Peter's admonition and give unto every man an answer?
I’m not Catholic, but intellectual honesty is important to me. Your explanation of the pope’s comments in full context is on target. He was saying not to look at circumstances with mere human eyes, because God sees them differently, according to his plan, which he reveals in his time, for instance as he revealed in the Resurrection.
I’ve been asked jokingly if I’m PC or sumthin’. Many of the people on this thread have imposed a Christian form of PC that boggles the mind.
“How do you account for the unassailable fact that these defeated, depressed disciples, scattered back to their homes after the crucifixion, shaking like frightened rabbits, behind locked doors, are shortly thereafter launching an all-out assault upon Caesar’s empire...”
— William H. Willimon, “American theologian and bishop in the United Methodist Church,...one of the two most frequently read writers by pastors in mainline Protestantism...”
Humanly speaking the disciples saw themselves as defeated. How did they view the crucifixion? As a failure of their leader, Jesus. But God had seen it differently from the beginning, and had other plans for them. After spending 40 days with Jesus, they saw the victory that God had in mind all along.
Should this be so hard to grasp?
Very well stated ....thank you....a good read!
I also think Francis’s Jesuit background comes into play in a big way in how he’s approaching “The World” leaders...and how he believes the World should be.
I listened again to the Popes speech at the UN and before our Congress....When Pope Francis, spoke to our congress....(our nations representatives “under God”) this man, promoted as “Vicar of Christ”, didn’t open up in prayer. ...He did not invoke God in any way, shape or form..... Instead he brought up Dorathy Day...Lincoln, King and others to support his socialist/political positions .. in other words the Ladicean gospel of socialism .....Jesus never even got an ‘honorable mention” in our Congress anymore than at the UN General Assembly....wrapping his speeches up in ‘God bless America’ is fast wearing thin on the lips of socialism.
Was reminded as I listened that the message of ‘the cross’ is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18....which does see to evade this Popes speeches entirely....
...Stunning when he is seen among members as the Vicar Of Christ, and the whole world is watching him, yet he miserably fails to give the Gospel message he’s been appointed to give.
If the Pope was addressing human failure, as some are attempting to explain, then why did he NOT follow with the Gospel Message and invitation? It was an ideal opportunity as the eyes of the world were watching.
Jesus said that if you will not acknowledge me before men I will not acknowledge you before my father....the Pope has crowds of crying yelling followers who NEED the Gospel...and instead the Pope talks of Globalism and the World uniting as one....as if man alone can erase the sins of the world.
He was worse than a fool saying that ‘the cross’ was a failure....’The blood of the cross’ is the very meeting place between God and man.....we come to “the Cross” for repentance and faith...that is where we meet...apart from that there’s nothing to save us... If you are not under the blood you are simply doomed by your own sins....the resurrection did not give us forgiveness...ONLY his shed blood in our place gave us that....and that was given by his blood shed for us there...at the Cross.
The Gospel message is the ONLY message that changes the heart and man...this Pope is not giving it.
One of the first signs of intellectual honesty is the ability, and willingness, to restate your opponent’s position ACCURATELY, before disputing it.
You will note that the anti-Catholics on this thread argue by distorting their opponent’s position as egregiously as possible. I noted one person who paraphrased what the Pope said as: “The death AND RESURRECTION of Jesus was a failure.”
I note that, at this point, the anti-Catholics are no longer discussing anything, but just shrieking insults and abuse. At this point, it’s time to just let the inner demons exhaust themselves.
I have not seen the quote in which Francis says Christ’s dying on the cross was a failure. I’ve not googled it. I’ll believe you all on this thread that it was said.
I have seen the post on this thread in which it is disputed that all theologians have agreed that the ‘death’ was a failure. I would challenge those theologians, also.
We CANNOT ignore prophecy. Prophecy clearly indicates the resurrection. We can go to those scriptures if necessary, but even the ‘gospel’ spelled out in 1 Co 15 shows that it was “Good News” that “Christ DIED for our sins according to the scripture, that He was buried, that He rose...”
The DEATH of Christ WAS the sacrifice that paid for our sins. God accepted that sacrifice and proved that to the ages to come by raising Jesus from the dead. He was dead, he was truly dead and buried, and He has Risen!
Is it possible that Satan and his minions danced a victory dance for a few until the resurrection? Yes. That did not make a failure the PLAN God had implemented as early as Eve when it was declared that her unique seed would bruise the head of the serpent. God made His plan more evident over the ages through the mouths of the prophets. And then His plan came to pass. As Jesus would say ahead of time, the Son of Man had to go to Jerusalem to be killed.
It was part of the eternal plan, so it would be in error to view it as a failure.
The failure occurred in the Garden. The failure of Man.
The Victory occurred at the cross. The Victory of Christ.
I never hurled any personal insults at you, but you chose to throw insults (Anti-Catholic Bigot) at everyone who disagreed with your point. I asked you to show me one single instance in which a Christian theologian said that the Cross of Christ was a failure. You told me to google it.
You are the one who cut off the discussion by calling people bigots. When you do that, you are the one who has stopped the debate.
You're just an Anti-Catholic Bigot.
Right on! Thank you.
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