Posted on 09/26/2015 11:31:49 AM PDT by Jan_Sobieski
When you have exhausted your supply of personal insults, and get around to saying something of substance, I might reply.
Actually Pope Francis spoke of victory; he specifically used the word success. The person who “left it at that” was the writer of the article who only included the “failure” sentence. One could do the same thing to Fulton Sheen’s sermons or even Rheinhold Niebur or virtually any other sermon ever preached on the Theology of the Cross.
Here’s a bit more of Pope Francis’ sermon:
“The cross shows us a different way of measuring success. Ours is to plant the seeds: God sees to the fruits of our labors. And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus… and his life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross.”
On Pope Francis’ behalf, please consider the following. I just saw a FR-refrenced video of the Pope saying this, the Pope not speaking in English. Noting possible (deliberate?) translation errors, Francis can be construed as intending to mean that that our efforts and works, along with Jesus’ crucification, are not signs of failures in God’s eyes.
Muslims find it impossible to believe God would have a son, and impossible to believe that, if he had one, he would allow him to be brutalized and murdered.
So they would see his death in the human way as proving he was not divine.
Read in context, Frances was making a point that many people have made. First point, you plant the seeds. God makes the harvest. What looks like a defeat may in fact not be defeat at all, especially when God takes up a position in the game.
And Christ’s death on the cross looked to human eyes (and satanic eyes) as a defeat when we now know it was the means by which the Kingdom would be ushered in. Many people have made this point.
I don’t like this pope as pope because he doesn’t seem to be able to separate his politics from his theology. A man who walks with God over decades should be more clear in seeing the distinction. But he comes out of a latin american context so I could cut him some slack as a neighborhood priest. As pope, he is the wrong guy for the job.
No need to reply.
The RC venom and bitterness obviously still pours from your heart through your duplicitous keyboard, doesn’t it?
Jesus went to the cross voluntarily. The Jews and the Romans could not have Crucified Christ unless they were given the power to do so by the Father. Christ suffered and died for us on the cross and the cross was a victory against sin and not a victory for sin.
To say any aspect of Christ’s crucifixion or resurrection was a “failure” in any respect is blasphemy.
How did God fail?
Was the crucifixion not part of God’s plan for man’s redemption since before the foundation of the earth?
Did not everything in Christ’s life and mission go exactly as planned?
Your Pope is a failure. Get a new one before it is too late.
People here are overlooking the preceding phrase “humanly speaking”. From man’s view it was as failure insofar as a social leader was executed for heresy.
Would have helped if the Pope had further clarified why Christ’s crucifixion wasn’t a failure after all.
Would help if the Pope would clarify a lot of things he says v
.....” This completely valid statement of his is not a point to chase”.....
What? ...a valid statement, one not a point to chase???
The central point to the Gospel message is Christ’s victory at the cross.
“[God] disarmed the principalities and powers that were ranged against us and made a bold display and public example of them, in ‘triumphing over them...in it [the cross]... (Col. 2:15 AMP)
Further Jesus’s last words were...”IT IS FINISHED”....
When the Lord Jesus Christ spoke his final words upon the cross, these were NOT words of defeat but words of victory.... He did not say, I’m finished, but, It is finished ..... These were words of victory,... Victory for Christ and victory for all who choose to know Him as Savior I do not believe these words were whispered - they were shouted!
And the serpent said unto the woman, did God really say...?
In my day, there was a talking Francis. He was a mule.
I think this pope is an idiot, but it does not appear to me he said what you say he said. He added the “humanly speaking” part to make it a comparison of when humans might wrongly consider their efforts a failure — premature consideration. Now, I think his example is hideous given that there is no comparison. But still, it is an example in reverse which actually says the opposite of what you accuse.
It is not helpful to take issue with false charges. There is plenty that is real to charge this pope with.
If he had expounded on his point I am sure he would have made it worse.
He is not a Catholic theologian, he is a catholic politician. Frankly with his comments on Global Warming, I think it is pretty obvious that he doesn't even believe in God.
According to their own, he's the last!
All the glory to God for answering your prayers!....I meet and see many young adults today who are far ‘too easily deceived’ by false teachings. Cults abound and most cloak themselves with the name of Jesus as means of baiting because it works..as well as using Christian verbage distorted to fit their teachings.
I have also had a family member who fell into false and “attractive” teachings which took them away from the faith for a time. They separated themselves from all family contact for well over a year. It cost them greatly as they lost their own family, home and security they once knew.
They have now turned back to the Lord but did not come away without bearing some very deep scars.
You don't have to shout Ann.
I call the man who gave birth to me Dad actually.
Your turn, why did Jesus say what He did in Matthew 23? And to whom?
Why was this such a strict order by Christ, and in what context?
If you read the previous paragraphs its clear what he was saying. He was telling people not to lose heart when they don’t see the fruit they expected to see.
“Ours is to plant the seeds. God sees to the fruits of our labors.”
If you go back and read the entire address there isn’t much to quibble about. I’m not catholic, but there isn’t much there for even a non-catholic to quibble about.
This pope doesn’t always think and speak clearly, and it makes it easy for the press and others to pull things out of context, to find things that support their agenda while omitting things that don’t. But his address is actually a pretty good one.
The full quote does not help. The victory of the cross was world, universe, history and life changing. It was a victory over Satan, sin, death, hell and the wretched human condition
By His death, Christ defeated death and opened the gates of heaven to those who had no other prayer of entry.
The devil had but the briefest time to imagine the cross was actually a failure (on Christ’s part), then he ran headlong into his own ultimate and eternal defeat. The disciples labored under the misconception for only a short span as well; soon came the Resurrection, and the amazement and excitement was/is indescribable.
I remember a hippie style Broadway show called Jesus Christ Superstar. While there were numerous issues with the musical, it loosely reflected the Gospel story...UNTIL the Resurrection. The nonChristains who wrote the musical could NOT bring themselves to depict the Resuurection. They had to leave the main character on an ersatz cross, and thus end the show on a note of failure.
That’s where Francis leaves it too. And that is the problem.
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