Are Republicans For Freedom Or White Identity Politics?

The Federalist ^ | August 21, 2015 | Ben Domenech, Publisher

[sparklite2]

I don’t understand why you would drag Charles Murray, co-author of The Bell Curve, into this discussion. He’s hardly a leftist race-baiter.

[GOPJ]

What - if rather than 30 million illegals, it was 800 million illegals? Three minutes... give this three minutes...it’ll give you what you need when talking to democrats...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

[uncitizen]

The headline says it all in just a few words. Do we really have to read the whole thing?

[2ndDivisionVet]

If you want to know their latest tactic on attacking him you will.

[Yosemitest]

"I don’t understand WHY you would drag Charles Murray ..."

I was simply responding to Ben Domenech's comment :

" The rise of Trump is an epic expression of frustration with the American political system, and it is a natural outgrowth of frustrations with America’s changing demographic
; the hollowing out of white working class values and culture,
as Charles Murray has documented extensively; and ... "

[sparklite2]

Your description of Murray as a snobby opportunist, or whatever that was, was wildly out of place. Murray is at the forefront of advocating the need to save Western civ, which is rather opposite to “also in denial.” Or am I reading something that you are merely quoting? If so, my apologies.

[Yosemitest]

" Murray is at the forefront of advocating the need to save Western civ, which is rather opposite to “also in denial.”
Or am I reading something that you are merely quoting? "

The quote I assume you are talking about is not from Comment #85, but from Comment #49, where I stated:

" His [Ben Domenech] "hero", Charles Murray is another political snob who's made his money out of selling colleges what they want to hear, who is also in denial.
So he, also, is trying to sell Liberals, and Liberals who are ashamed to call themselves Liberals, but want to sell the label "neoconservatives", what they want to hear.
They use "white identity politics" to try to SMEAR a REAL plan of attack to return this country from SOCIALISTS' POLICIES that are destroying us,
and back to the principles and ideas our Founding Fathers used to MAKE THIS COUNTRY GREAT !
Would they ever use the term "BLACK identity politics" ?
Of course not !
Ben Domenech is just as bad as George Will !
And what offends these snobs so much, is the very real possibility that they may lose their ILLEGAL ALIENS that are their baby-sitters, gardeners, house-keepers, and financially indentured slaves. "

Now, just HOW is Murray "advocating the need to save Western civ... " ?

Is he "advocating" "Big Government" ?
Is Murray "advocating" “a stronger safety net” ?
Is he "advocating" "Social Justice" ?
Is he "advocating" “a cleaner environment” ?
Is Murray "advocating" “a stronger education for the 'academically gifted' ” ?

Or .... is he a FIRM BELIEVER and ADVOCATOR of "INDIVIDUAL Liberty" ?
Does Murray support "INDIVIDUAL Responsibility" ?
Does he believe in and support "government having ONLY a MINIMAL ROLE in the lives of its citizens" ?

In short:

Is Charles Murray a REAL Conservative,
or an old moderate DemocRAT
who is ASHAMED to call himself a "Liberal" ?

[sparklite2]

This is from a review of one of Murray’s books. I hope it answers your questions.

In his summing up Charles Murray insists that Western civilization has produced the most impressive record of human accomplishment. He uses the basic profound insight of Aristotle as his main premise. “Other things being equal human beings enjoy the exercise of their realized capacities (their innate or trained abilities), and this enjoyment increases the more the capacity is realized, or the greater its complexity.”

A sense of purpose animates western culture, in the believe that human talent and creativity have something that transcends somehow the corporate human body. And an atmosphere of general freedom and encouragement of individual effort beyond a collectivist or group ethic.

[Yosemitest]

It answers NONE of them.

[sparklite2]

Individualism ... superior culture ....

Yeah, it has nothing to do with your questions.

I’m done here.

[rmlew]

Domenech is wrong about white identity politics. Other than trade, this is essentially what Reagan and Nixon did to get the "Jacksonians". He has just joined the left in calling this racism. We do have a racialist party in America, the Democrat party. There is nothing racist, much less White Nationalist about restricting immigration in general, calling for an immigration policy based on America's needs and other civic/ liberal nationalist ideas. Nor is protectionism racial in any way. Trying to create more low and medium skilled blue collar jobs would disproportionately benefit minorities.

The comparison to Europe is imprecise. These are or were nation-states built around or dominated by specific ethnic groups. America long ago ceased to be made up of it's founding political population. That America died in the 1960s if not the 1860s. Blood and soil nationalism is a non-starter in America. Civic nationalism where we expect immigrants to assimilate is another matter entirely.

[rmlew]

His "hero", Charles Murray is another political snob who's made his money out of selling colleges what they want to hear, who is also in denial.
Charles Murray wrote the Bell Curve. He's been all but drummed out of academia and polite society. Try again.

[rmlew]

Is Charles Murray a REAL Conservative, or an old moderate DemocRAT who is ASHAMED to call himself a "Liberal" ?
He's a libertarian with traditional values. Go read "The Bell Curve" and "Coming Apart". Then apologize for ever ignorant and asinine thing your wrote about Murray in this thread.

[Yosemitest]

[Charles Murray] "He's a libertarian with traditional values."

You mean he supports LEGALIZATION of RECREATIONAL DRUGS ?

You have NOT offered any answers to my questions.
You've offered only INNUENDOES.

Who did he support in 2008, ROMNEY ?
Does he support Paul (since you say he's a "Libertarian" ?

Like most people trying to straighten out the mess Congress has gotten us into, and vote for the "best person to do the job",
I neither have the time, or the inclination to go reading 2 bloviating books by someone who sits around with a bunch of other college/university snobs, discussing how smart they are.

Like Martin Morse Wooster said in one of the quotes I found while trying to figure out if Charles Murray was a PRETEND Conservative, or an out right LIBERAL lying about his conservative values:

Murray sees the American elite as morally hollow.
The upper class does many things well (including having strong and lasting marriages)
but is unwilling and possibly unable to defend the virtues that lead to its success.
“The signs that America’s new upper class has suffered a crisis of self-confidence are hard to ignore,” he writes.
By being separate from the rest of the nation, this class fails to set an example of good behavior that is necessary for everyone to follow in order to succeed.
The elite colleges are implicitly part of that problem.

Intellectuals are known for overthinking problems.
I have a nagging suspicion that Murray may have done exactly that in his argument
that elite colleges are complicit in America’s “coming apart.”
Is it really something new
that the brightest young men and women tend to marry and have very bright children
and that the upper classes don’t mingle much with the rest of society?

Whatever the answers to those questions, Murray offers no specific solutions, including changes in the role of colleges.
Should those schools change admissions policies?
He doesn’t say.
Should the elite individuals change their lives?
All he says is that they should “think about ways to change.”
Here, Murray’s long-established cultural pessimism shows through
we’re facing a problem and there isn’t any clear solution to it.
I hope it’s not as bad as he claims.

But NONE OF THIS answers my questions !

[Yosemitest]

"Auster's First Law of Majority-Minority Relations in Liberal Society:
The worse any designated minority or alien group behaves in a liberal society,
the bigger become the lies of Political Correctness in covering up for that group.
Thus, instead of the revelation over the last 14 months of Islam's dangerous and savage character leading
(as would happen in a rational world)
to a major discrediting of Muslims, or at least to a more skeptical attitude toward them,
it has led to their being more favored, more coddled and more protected from criticism than ever before.
They now get a whole new level of solicitous, sycophantic treatment,
ranging from PBS "histories" of Islam that are more full of uncritical celebration of their subject than a tourist travelogue,
to the media's constant attacks on the rest of us for indulging in an anti-Muslim backlash
which has somehow never occurred.
That last point leads us to the first corollary of Auster's First Law of Majority/Minority Relations in Liberal Society:
The more egregiously any non-Western or non-white group behaves,
the more evil whites are made to appear
for noticing and drawing rational conclusions about that group's bad behavior.
The First Law and its corollary are intrinsic to liberalism.
Once the equality of all human groups is accepted as a given,
any facts that make a minority or foreign group seem worse than the majority native group
must be either covered up
or blamed on the majority."

That's a great statement.

[Yosemitest]

"Individualism ... superior culture ...."

Show me those two terms in your quote

"“Other things being equal human beings enjoy the exercise of their realized capacities
(their innate or trained abilities),
and this enjoyment increases the more the capacity is realized, or the greater its complexity."

Now if you're having trouble with formatting, I recommend

HTML Sandbox 2008

and A guide to using HTML on Free Republic in 5 lines

[Yosemitest]

Not just to you, but to those who want to pursue Charles Murray and give him about 48 minutes of your time, here he is on YouTube.:

Charles Murray on Coming Apart ( 47:36 )
Published on Apr 10, 2012
... On Uncommon Knowledge, longtime American Enterprise Institute fellow Charles Murray discusses his controversial new book, Coming Apart,
about what American was, is, and will become.
He also reveals his personal score on his now famous "bubble quiz."

[rmlew]

Read Murray’s earlier works. He wants an elite to lead the nation in traditional values. So do I. Heck, the Founding Fathers expected this.