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To: DiogenesLamp
That's pretty much where we differ.

"whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends"

What were "these ends"?

Just what I've been talking about. The expansion of liberty, not the expansion of slavery.

Whether a people will gain their independence is largely a function of military effectiveness. Which the Founders knew perfectly well. Their Declarations was thus almost entirely a proclamation of why their desire for independence was right.

Because the British government was, or they believed it was, destructive of "these ends."

You may note that none of the secessionists contributed anything even vaguely similar, a paean to the spread of liberty.

Why was that? Perhaps because even they choked on claims their revolt was in the service of human liberty?

196 posted on 07/07/2015 1:36:37 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
What were "these ends"?

Well they didn't list them all, but "among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." The rest can be surmised to be along similar lines.

Just what I've been talking about. The expansion of liberty, not the expansion of slavery.

Now don't go getting anachronistic here. It said nothing for or against the "expansion of slavery", and given that it was practiced by many if not all of the signatories and all of the colonies which were signatories, one can only conclude that they had no intention of interfering with what was then a legal and accepted practice.

Don't go ex post facto here.

Whether a people will gain their independence is largely a function of military effectiveness. Which the Founders knew perfectly well.

Sure, when presenting these ideas to a Monarchy. When presenting them to a Republic that was founded on these very same ideas, there should not be any need for a Military confrontation because these principles were presumably acceptable to the Nation that created them and used them for their own Independence.

These ideas are of the same religion as the nation which created them. Adhering to these ideas should not cause conflict. The Foundational ground was flipped away from Divine Right Monarchy and towards the freedom of Popular Self Determination, a concept we have embraced for every other break off territory in the World except for our own.

Serbia/Croatia? Of course they have a right to Separate! Russia/Ukraine? Long live freedom and Independence! Philippines? Go in peace our Brethren. Cuba? Vaya con dios Amigos!

The Southern States? Get the F**K back in Line you Evil Bastards!

You may note that none of the secessionists contributed anything even vaguely similar, a paean to the spread of liberty.

The absence of pomp and circumstance does not abrogate a right. Independence ought not hinge on Crossed "T"s and dotted "I"s. Both sides knew that the Southern states wanted independence. Formalities would not have changed anyone's mind about anything.

216 posted on 07/07/2015 2:30:24 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp
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