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To: SvenMagnussen

sven how did obama get a certificate of loss of nationality??? splain me again please.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120538.pdf

e. Parents or guardians cannot renounce or relinquish the U.S. citizenship of a child who acquired U.S. citizenship at birth.

(2) Voluntariness and intent: Minors who seek to renounce citizenship often
do so at the behest of or under pressure from one or more parent. If such
pressure is so overwhelming as to negate the free will of the minor, it
cannot be said that the statutory act of expatriation was committed
voluntarily. The younger the minor is at the time of renunciation, the more
influence the parent is assumed to have. Even in the absence of any
evidence of parental inducements or pressure, you and CA must make a
judgment whether the individual minor manifested the requisite maturity to
appreciate the irrevocable nature of expatriation. Absent that maturity, it
NCLASSIFIED (U)
U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual Volume 7
Consular Affairs
7 FAM 1290 Page 3 of 11
UNCLASSIFIED (U)
cannot be said that the individual acted voluntarily. Moreover, it must be
determined if the minor lacked intent, because he or she did fully
understand what he or she was doing. Children under 16 are presumed
not to have the requisite maturity and knowing intent;


58 posted on 04/03/2015 5:06:40 PM PDT by rolling_stone (1984)
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To: rolling_stone
Loss of nationality is a two step process: 1) renouncement and 2) relinquishment by the issuance of a certificate of loss of nationality (CLN) by the US government. US citizenship is not lost until a CLN is issued. A US citizen who has renounced is entitled to a US passport until a CLN is issued, assuming appropriate fees are paid, the application is properly filled out and supporting documents are submitted. A US citizen who has renounced is entitled the the privileges and immunities of any other US citizen until a CLN issued. Anyone of any age has a right to move out of the US and renounce. You are quoting a 2009 policy statement and not US federal law. It is unlawful for the State Department to inform anyone they cannot renounce.

The policy statement you are quoting concerns a 2009 policy that the State Department will not issue a CLN for a child under 16. This policy was not in effect in 1968. The President, by an through the Secretary of State, unilaterally decides who is issued a CLN and who is not issued a CLN. It is quite possible for an individual to move out of the country in 1968, renounce and be issued a CLN; while in 2009 and with a similar set of circumstances with a different President, a CLN will be denied. CLNs issued to minors are issued with the caveat the minor may announce their intent to the return to the US and recapture their US citizenship until 6 months past their age of majority. See Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325 (1939).

Marie Elg was native born person who expatriated with her parents during her minority. Her father renounced her US citizenship during her minority and she was refused a US passport during her majority. This could have only happened if she had been issued a CLN. Later, the Secretary of State intervened and Marie Elg was issued a US passport to return to the US to recapture her US citizenship. The Secretary of State would have to cancel Marie Elg's CLN before he could have ordered the State Department to issue her a US passport.

Later, Marie Elg was living in America and was denied a renewed US passport and threatened with deportation. She sued in the District Court for a writ of mandamus and an injunction against deportation. The District ruled she was a natural born citizen of the United States and the Circuit Court affirmed the ruling. SCOTUS affirmed, but modified the ruling to opine Marie Elg was a natural born citizen in the United States. In other words, Marie Elg was natural born citizen when she was born, then she wasn't a natural born citizen after her father renounced on her behalf, and finally she as a natural born citizen again after she returned to the US to begin living as a US citizen.

Recall that Obama was considered a US citizen at birth pursuant to the 14th Amendment and a British subject at birth pursuant to the British Nationality Act. Factcheck.org explains:

When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.’s children:

British Nationality Act of 1948 (Part II, Section 5): Subject to the provisions of this section, a person born after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent if his father is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies at the time of the birth.

In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.

Obama’s British citizenship was short-lived. On Dec. 12, 1963, Kenya formally gained its independence from the United Kingdom. Chapter VI, Section 87 of the Kenyan Constitution specifies that:

1. Every person who, having been born in Kenya, is on 11th December, 1963 a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies or a British protected person shall become a citizen of Kenya on 12th December, 1963…

2. Every person who, having been born outside Kenya, is on 11th December, 1963 a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies or a British protected person shall, if his father becomes, or would but for his death have become, a citizen of Kenya by virtue of subsection (1), become a citizen of Kenya on 12th December, 1963.

As a citizen of the UKC who was born in Kenya, Obama’s father automatically received Kenyan citizenship via subsection (1). So given that Obama qualified for citizen of the UKC status at birth and given that Obama’s father became a Kenyan citizen via subsection (1), it follows that Obama did in fact have Kenyan citizenship after 1963.


The Marie Elg case set the precedent that Obama was not a natural born citizen when he moved to Indonesia. Consequently, SoS Rusk issued Obama a CLN. Marie Elg notified the State Department she intended to recapture her US citizenship before the 6 month expiration past her age of majority. Obama did not notify the State Department he intended to recapture his US citizenship within the 6 month expiration date past his age of majority. Consequently, Obama naturalized in 1983 to become a US citizen.


59 posted on 04/03/2015 9:31:13 PM PDT by SvenMagnussen (1983 ... the year Obama became a naturalized U.S. citizen.)
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