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To: Chainmail; Hulka

“Somebody just gave the wrong grid” is an excuse...”

Actually, it is the reason things went wrong in the case you cite. The airplane wasn’t wrong, the bombs used were not wrong, the crew was not wrong - they hit the target ground commanders told them to hit. The error was not in the air, but on the ground.

“Just “we do things better now”...”

Yep. This is not 1944 nor 1964. Ground pounders were MORE LIKELY TO DIE in 1944 or 1964 from poorly done CAS than they are now. Because in the US Air Force (and Army & Navy and even Marines), we keep trying to get better!

“Air power supports ground objectives.”

No kidding. That is why, in Afghanistan (while filling in for the ALO), I told the Army BDE/CC he would not get any air support for his mission. He tore me a new butthole. When he ran out of steam, I pointed out the Army General’s direct order - “all available air” would go to a higher priority operations and “none” would be sent to his area of operations.

He stormed off, called his boss, then returned and told his staff that there would be ZERO air sent our way - by order of the 2-star.

When I was in Korea, my 3-star worked for the Army 4-star. When working logistics issues, I always won and the Marines always lost. Why? Because I was arranging what the 4-star said was HIS #1 priority, and the Marines were pushing the Army 4-star’s 8th or 9th priority. Not mine. Not my 3-star USAF general’s. The 4-star USA commander’s priorities.

The Marine officer finally complained it wasn’t fair. The US Army Colonel running the show said the only fairness he was interested in was carrying out the 4-star’s plan. The 4-star US ARMY Commander.

When I was a BDE/ALO, every target I gave the fighters was approved by either the XO or CC. 100%. Not 25%, not 50% - EVERY TARGET I GAVE THE FIGHTERS WAS FIRST APPROVED BY THE GROUND COMMANDER OR HIS XO.

After all: “That’s the Air Force way, alrighty!” The USAF - giving the ground commander what he wants!


96 posted on 12/02/2014 1:37:59 PM PST by Mr Rogers
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To: Mr Rogers
We seem to speaking at cross purposes. In any fire support coordination system, targets are passed through a fire support liaison section that verifies the grid as being safe, not with danger close of a friendly/noncombatant/NFA, and within our area of responsibility. That's what ALOs do for air targets - sanity check before wings level, clear and hot.

I am well acquainted with the anal-retentive Army system of "dueling stars" - but any commander, anywhere that puts folks in contact as a Pri-8 deserves a forced retirement. It also tells you why we Marines rabidly resist parceling our sorties out to area commander control.

You do not "work for the 3-or 4-star" you work for the troops in contact and the mission. I am well aware of the USAF and Army culture - I once had the "pleasure" of having two USAF captains working for me and the strident whining about have their FitReps signed by me, a lowly Marine was heart -rending.

Again, the reason for CAS is for aiding the ground guys in succeeding in their mission and to help the enemy die/our guys live. Parceling out sorties to only one parochial unit should be court-martial fodder.

The "that's the Air Force alrighty" comment was in reference the well-known arrogance of the Air Force. Some of it is justified - you fly well. Some of it isn't. Those of us who have survived the beaten zone are not impressed if the air support isn't there or misses the bad guys or gets us.

97 posted on 12/02/2014 2:40:43 PM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Mr Rogers; Hulka; Alas Babylon!
I've had a whole night to think more about the subject and I'm even more fired up. The tone of Mr. Roger's last response exactly sums up what's wrong with today's armed forces: astounding avoidance of reality and career-centrism. Combat power exists in two forms, ground-gaining power and support for the ground-gaining forces. No matter which service controls what, the responsibility of everybody involved is to ensure that every ounce of capability is provided when and where it is needed. Lives are at stake.

The story Mr. Rogers related about the colonel demanding air support for a unit in Afghanistan and denied it because "it was a Major General's direct order that all air support goes to somebody else" is a travesty. Did that unit that needed air support lose anyone? If so, those deaths, those wounds are yours and that pigheaded Major General's to hold as your own. Didn't you have the career courage to stand up to that Major General to do the right thing? Moral courage demands taking the right action even when a bad fitness report or relief for cause may result. Afghanistan is a special case because almost all of the credible fire support is air support - there is very little in the way of artillery and mortar within range - so responsive air support is vital.

We have lessons to learn as professionals and we should be looking for methods to reduce the lag time between sensor to shooter while ensuring precision and safety. It isn't "somebody else's problem" when fire support fails, it's all of our problem.

If there's any one thing my ranting should bring to the surface it is the responsibilities of all of us involved in the combat and combat support chain to do what is right at any cost to ourselves. The "well, it looked OK when it left" excuse doesn't wash if our own young people are killed and wounded by our actions or inactions.

98 posted on 12/03/2014 5:23:35 AM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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