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To: Hulka; Mr Rogers
I figured I'd give you a bit of time to clarify your experience for all of us but no response so far. It's possible that you haven't read all of my posts, so I'll repeat my qualifications for you: 17 months in combat in Vietnam with CAS used almost daily. The very best CAS was accurate CAS and the Marine pilots and some of the Navy pilots delivered the CAS point-blank right where it was needed. I am sure that I am alive because of some Marine F-4s who nailed the heavily defended VC battalion headquarters that was our objective perfectly with Snake eyes.

In the infantry war, the enemy is always very close. if you ever watch a firefight from the air, you'd be struck by how short the tracers lines are and how close everyone is to each other. For that kind of war, the aircraft supporting us had to get down close and make a pass or two to make sure they were running parallel to our front and they knew exactly where we were and the enemy was before releasing anything.

Bombing from nice, safe altitudes above the reach of small arms also introduces variables - relative wind, air density, variable conditions in the weapon's drag among others - and the CEP gets larger. A big CEP means that the odds increase that the munitions will hit us instead of the enemy - or in many cases, the wrong damn treeline and innocent villagers get killed.

My point, which seems to be lost on you, is that even a dedicated weapon like the A-10 was used badly sometimes and killed our guys because they didn't make runs above the target to make sure of its identity and more than a few of the pilots wouldn't be able to recognize our stuff anyway, since they never spent any time with us.

This stuff isn't just tough luck or the way war always is - those guys on the ground are every bit as important to their friends and their families as those pilots.

My point was and remains that unless the USAF really is committed to the proper and safe application of CAS, they should hand that mission over to people who will learn who they are supporting and take the risks and precautions needed to ensure that none of our brave kids dies at our own hands. We've seen too much of it.

89 posted on 12/01/2014 6:11:02 PM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Chainmail

“Bombing from nice, safe altitudes above the reach of small arms also introduces variables - relative wind, air density, variable conditions in the weapon’s drag among others - and the CEP gets larger. A big CEP means that the odds increase that the munitions will hit us instead of the enemy - or in many cases, the wrong damn treeline and innocent villagers get killed.”

I’ve dropped thousands of bombs. I also worked on the SNIPER targeting pod, and worked with PGMs.

If you don’t know the difference between bombing in 1965, or 1985 (when I started doing it) and 2010 or 2014...well, listen. Target ID is vastly BETTER at altitude. Accuracy with PGMs is vastly BETTER. Communication is vastly BETTER. Datalinks allow a JTAC and the pilot to exchange pictures, to make sure both are seeing the same thing. That makes it SAFER for the guy on the ground.

Targeting pods were developed in part to make CAS BETTER. They largely take the pilot of 200 hours and let him put bombs on target like a pilot of 5000 hours. That was an investment in CAS by people who believe in the mission.

I’ve also had to fight with Army officers who didn’t know squat all about HOW to get bombs on target. The ARMY doesn’t know CAS very well, or airpower. I know, because I’ve spent time teaching them as an ALO.


91 posted on 12/01/2014 7:39:28 PM PST by Mr Rogers
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To: Chainmail
I figured I'd give you a bit of time to clarify your experience for all of us but no response so far.

Well, if you actually READ their posts above yours BEFORE you posted this, you would have seen that Hulka WAS AN A-10 PILOT, and Rogers flew years of combat air support and was on the ground as a forward air controller. And thank you sir, for your service. You said the Air Force NEVER apologizes. So I'll do it for them.

It is a horrible--indescribable--ordeal that we bombed your men. There is no excuse, but there it is. Friendly fire has got to be about the worst that can happen in combat. It cannot get more personal than being under fire from your OWN GUYS!

So many here condemn the USAF for being concerned with air-to-air combat, but because they are, no American troops have been under constant aerial attack since WWII. Imagine what the Marine close air support could do to American troops. What the USAF does is make sure that such devastating attacks don't happen, at least by enemy air power.

93 posted on 12/02/2014 5:43:11 AM PST by Alas Babylon!
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