Ukraine forces clash with armoured convoy crossing Russia border: Kiev

AFP ^ | 2014/08/25

[TigerLikesRooster]

Ukraine forces clash with armoured convoy crossing Russia border: Kiev

"The Ukrainian border has been breached by a convoy of several dozen tanks and armoured vehicles" …

Kiev (AFP) - Ukraine said a battle erupted on Monday between border guards and a convoy of "dozens" of armoured vehicles and tanks that entered its territory from Russia near the Azov Sea.

"The Ukrainian border has been breached by a convoy of several dozen tanks and armoured vehicles" which crossed in the area close to Ukraine's industrial city Mariupol, security spokesman Leonid Matyukhin told AFP.

[1rudeboy]

Listen, when someone tries deliberately to be obtuse, or change the subject, then I have no problem with living up to the alternate meaning of my screen name.

You may have forgotten that last week, you were arguing that the existing (at the time) Status of Forces Agreement permitted Russian troops to operate in Crimea. Sadly for you, I went and read it. Then I tried to determine where you received your false information, and learned that it was one of the arguments made by the Russian Ambassador to the U.N.

So my money is on "tool."

[wetphoenix]

Where had I changed a subject, rude? And what exactly is false in my information? Russian naval personnel had right to be there for sure. I’m not sure if it was legal to participate in seizure of bases from their fellow Ukrainian airmen and sailors, but their presence on the peninsula was legal for sure.

[1rudeboy]

Where had I changed a subject, rude?

Your comment #16. The subject was Russia's involvement.

Russian naval personnel had right to be there for sure.

This is where you become obtuse. Russian soldiers had the right to be on their bases (and probably had the right to be on liberty outside of them), but they most assuredly did not have the right to be armed, agitating the locals, and seizing random buildings.

[wetphoenix]

Comment #16 is not a change of subject as far you are portraying Ukrainian conflict as a pure NSW between Ukraine and Russia.
A presence of insurgency is what makes you wrong on that.

And as for me being obtuse you were drawing parallels between East Ukraine and Crimea when I said there weren’t any evidence of Russian military presence in the East. Your arguments were that Russian presence were denied as well in Crimea at the time too.
I don’t think that your argument is legit and I’m obtuse for a reason that unlike Crimea, East of Ukraine has no legal Russian presence at all. It is simply silly to deny an obvious presence of marines in Crimea where you could see men wearing their uniform missing only insignias and riding in their specific vehicles. And it is as stupid to cluesly claim Russian presence in Donetsk, when most of the fighters are older bearded guys, wearing unmatched surplus camo, armed with different non-standard weapons, including Mosin and SKS phased six decades ago, using Ukrainian army heavy equipment and so on.

[AdmSmith]

Hi wetphoenix,

May we have your comments on the new Russian GRU unit for liquidation of foreign political leaders?

http://vichivisam.ru/?p=11553

[1rudeboy]

There ya' go again--the subject is your claim that there is no "direct" Russian involvement. Stating that locals are involved also does not negate the fact that there is.

You appear to be arguing that there won't be Russian involvement until Russian troops cross the border singing "Kalinka." Seriously, how finely can you split that hair?

And I will remind you that the shills were arguing "there were no Russians forces operating in Crimea" as long as the Kremlin denied it. Once the Kremlin admitted that they were, they switched to arguing, "well, wasn't it obvious?"

The only question remaining is, will they do the same here?

[AdmSmith]

Red Cross Says Ukraine Conflict Is War, MH17 Could Be A War Crime

The International Committee of the Red Cross has made the legal decision that the conflict in Ukraine is officially and international war. This means that crimes committed as part of the conflict could be tried as war crimes — including the downing of flight MH17.

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukrainian-liveblog-day-189-is-there-a-russian-invasion/#3941

[JSDude1]

And Obama says nothing, goes back to playing golf!

[Sam Gamgee]

Heh, I thought these were relief supplies? LOL

[Ivan Mazepa]

Oi vei, how can you keep denying this? Zakharchenko (new defense minister or whatever he is of DNR) said it. There are now fresh graves in in Pskov. Ukrainian Defense minister is asking Russian mothers to go pick up their kids

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

It is not necessarily done by the government. But government might be involved too.

You're stupid Russkie. How do non-government entities get massive amounts of military weapons and armor and pass them through Russian controlled border checkpoints?

From the AP, as mentioned on the Interpreter:

AP reporters say convoys of military weaponry and supplies have been coming from the direction of Russia into rebel-held Ukraine. Rebel fighters also described how Russian border guards did nothing to stop them.

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukrainian-liveblog-day-189-is-there-a-russian-invasion/

Even the separatists admit they are getting aid and soldiers from Russia. They even said a week or so ago that they had received 1,200 soldiers fresh from Russia:

"Pro-Russian separatists announced 1,200 troops and 150 vehicles including tanks trained in Russia will join their increasingly desperate fight against the Ukrainian military. Separatist leader Alexander Zakharchenko, who made the announcement in a video, did not specify the origins of the troops or weapons."

http://www.ibtimes.com/ukraine-1200-soldiers-150-armored-vehicles-joining-separatists-after-russian-training-1660570

I know Russia is economically somewhere on the level of Africa, but I don't think I can believe that they are such a lawless country that random citizens of Russia are able to conduct military training, get ahold of "150 armored vehicles," and then march them through Russia and into Ukraine, without the government having something to do with it.

You're denials are simply idiotic and slavish.

[wetphoenix]

It is something this time, it is better than fake documents published by SBU earlier, but I still don’t believe a thing from both sides here.
If it’s true I don’t think it is too smart to annex parts of Ukraine. It was looted and underdeveloped for decades and would took hundreds of billion dollars to bring up to standard. Not to mention crowds of unreformed commies residing there who somehow managed to maintain their aggressive entitlement mentality for all these years.

[wetphoenix]

~I know Russia is economically somewhere on the level of Africa, but I don’t think I can believe that they are such a lawless country that random citizens of Russia are able to conduct military training, get ahold of “150 armored vehicles,” and then march them through Russia and into Ukraine, without the government having something to do with it.~

Yep, true, Africa and one of top global economies so far.

And by the way from a video in my post you can see rebels have got a dozen pieces of heavy equipment from the Ukrainian military. In just one isolated incident.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Yep, true, Africa and one of top global economies so far.

Russia's nominal GDP per capita: 14,818 in USD.

Compared to the United States: 53,101.

Like the Soviet Union, the only thing keeping Russia afloat is oil prices. Hence why any Russian with brains is fleeing the country.

And by the way from a video in my post

Your video was and is still worthless, just like your posts in general.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

It is something this time, it is better than fake documents published by SBU earlier, but I still don’t believe a thing from both sides here.

You're a liar Russkie, you believe everything Putin tells you to believe, and have been caught vomiting up propaganda straight from your lying Russian sources while simultaneously admitting you knew nothing about the subject. You even go so far as to paint lying Russkies as possible Ukrainian agents who have snuck into the noble ranks of the DNR.

Shut up Russkie with your whole "I don't believe both sides".

[wetphoenix]

~Russia’s nominal GDP per capita: 14,818 in USD.

Compared to the United States: 53,101.

Like the Soviet Union, the only thing keeping Russia afloat is oil prices. Hence why any Russian with brains is fleeing the country.~

Compare the total national GDP to Saudi Arabia, which has similar oil output to prove you wrong.
Also 15,000 PPP per capita is that makes a country into a first world. It is between 15 and 20,000 for Russia.
Not to mention it is mostly drugged down by a few depressive provinces: stans and a some commie-infested ‘red states’ bordering Ukraine. If not for them a GDP per capita would be around $30,000 on par with Finland, Israel and South Korea.
And if we are talking about West Siberia it is clearly ahead of US average.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Compare the total national GDP to Saudi Arabia, which has similar oil output to prove you wrong.

Saudi Arabia: 24,847 per capita. Even they're a little better off. We're not worried about the total since we want to know what the average income of a Russian is. As in Saudi Arabia, much of that "total national GDP" is being accumulated by a small number of people, namely the Kleptocrats connected with the regime. Aside from a city like Moscow, most Russians live in tremendous poverty in comparison to western nations.

"The report presents some startling findings concerning Russia. The gulf between Russia’s haves and have nots is ever widening. Despite increases in Russian household wealth from an annual $1,650 in 2000 to $11,900 today, a mere 110 billionaires own 35 percent of Russia’s $1.2 trillion in household wealth. According to the report, 93.7 percent of the population owns $10,000 or less, and dispelling the notion of a monetary middle class, a paltry 5.6 percent own between $10,000 and $100,000. Poverty fell over the last decade, but inequality rose. “Russia has the highest level of wealth inequality in the world, apart from small Caribbean nations with resident billionaires,” the report concludes. The report’s authors seem surprised by this wealth concentration. Perhaps it’s because they ascribe to the ideological notion that Russia’s transition from communism to capitalism should have produced a vibrant middle class. “At the time of transition there were hopes that Russia would convert to a high skilled, high income economy with strong social protection programs inherited from Soviet Union days. This is almost a parody of what happened in practice,” the reports states with its own parody of a tired tenet of liberal teleology."

http://readrussia.com/2013/10/10/russias-widening-wealth-inequality/

This isn't much better than Mexico and Brazil, who have GDPs per capita of 9,000 to 11,000 respectively.

[wetphoenix]

~Saudi Arabia: 24,847 per capita. Even they’re a little better off. We’re not worried about the total since we want to know what the average income of a Russian is. As in Saudi Arabia, much of that “total national GDP” is being accumulated by a small number of people, namely the Kleptocrats connected with the regime. Aside from a city like Moscow, most Russians live in tremendous poverty in comparison to western nations.~

I haven’t posted it to show that average Russian is better off than a Saudi.
It was about to call your petrocracy bullcrap.
Compare a population of Saudi Arabia and Russia now and you’ll see that oil it not a single driver for the latter.

~According to the report, 93.7 percent of the population owns $10,000 or less, and dispelling the notion of a monetary middle class, a paltry 5.6 percent own between $10,000 and $100,000. ~

LOL. That is why a barely decent property in my city starts at $200,000 and you won’t find even a crack house under $70,000.

In Moscow you’ll need around $300,000 to start at ghetto.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

It was about to call your petrocracy bullcrap.

Kleptocracy, you illiterate Russkie. I did not say petrocracy. My word means rule by thieves.

That is why a barely decent property in my city

Who cares about your city? We are talking about the average in Russia, which isn't limited to Moscow and whatever gutter you were spawned from.

[wetphoenix]

My city is just slightly above average nationwide in home prices. And the majority of Russians are living in cities.