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To: ncalburt

Thanks for the link—I actually saw that excellent article through Twitter yesterday.

I confess I am not straight in my understanding on what is actually going on in the Ukraine.

I know I am viewing it through my post WW2 Cold War American lenses. The history of Europe, and of changing borders and ethnic political groupings goes back centuries in this part of the world.

So, who is right and who is wrong is not always clear.

I also am interested in what folks here think Putin’s endgame is. Is the absorption of parts of the Ukraine part of a bigger overall strategy he has in order to dominate other Slavic and ethnic Russian nations, or all of Europe?

I tend to view the notion that we “won” the Cold War as a ruse, which has acted to allow time for the Soviet Union—Russia—to spin off trouble making and costly Muslim and polluted republics and to concentrate on its knitting.

Putin to me seems to be a Russian nationalist, not happy with seeing his nation’s “defeat” in the Cold War, and wanting to make Russia powerful again. He’s KGB trained, so his methods are ruthless, no doubt.

But he is not different than many others throughout history who have built empires to benefit their homeland at the expense of others.

I also believe that our very own Barack Obama and his key Administration personnel are not just leftist, but hard core Communist radicals, trained and and placed for what they are accomplishing right now—the destruction of American as a global power, with the added bonus of stripping away its wealth in the process.

I am trying to see what is happening from a higher level—strategically, realizing I have my own biases.

That is why I am seeking other opinions on what is actually taking place.


44 posted on 05/11/2014 5:25:28 PM PDT by exit82 ("The Taliban is on the inside of the building" E. Nordstrom 10-10-12)
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To: exit82

“I also am interested in what folks here think Putin’s endgame is.”

Putin’s “Endgame” is to counter Obama’s attempts to take down it’s allies, starting with Syria, and secure Russia’s place in the world...

The Russians are determined that what happened in Libya and Serbia doesn’t get repeated.

Obama’s arrogance and incompetence have opened the door for Putin to make big moves, filling the void left behind by the lack of US Leadership. And China is doing the same now.

There wouldn’t be a vote today in Donetsk, had Obama not chosen the most radical anti-Russian elements in Ukraine to finance an overthrow through.

Crimea would still be Ukrainian, as well.

The FIRST move of the Not-A-Nazi Nazi’s, after the Not-A-Coup Coup that took down the elected prez, supported by most of the East, was to announce that they were going to outlaw Russian Culture and language in Ukraine.

What did they think was going to happen, after that?


61 posted on 05/11/2014 5:37:12 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: exit82

If I were Russia, my biggest worry would be China. They have to know that the US is disarming and will soon be a paper tiger - take out one of our carriers and the rest will scurry back to port, and they’ll own the neighborhood (the Chinese have missiles and lasers that do that easily now - and I suspect the Russians might too).

So the Russians don’t need to waste their time worrying about us anymore - we’re too busy with Green Power and March Madness to be taken seriously. But China keeps getting stronger, they keep getting more and more technology from the West, and the scariest part - they keep (relatively) quiet, lulling their prey to sleep. That is hard to counter - Putin is in a position to do so, whereas our elections are won by the biggest rock star.

The people in the Russian Far East (i.e., like 2/3’s of Russia) are now about 2/3’s Chinese. That has to scare the hell out of Putin, as it’s only a matter of time before he has to face off against them there, and that will not be pretty.

So, in the end, I suspect that Putin realizes that the ONLY way to be able to take on China in the long run is to team up with other countries. Maybe us, if we can get our act together - but if not, then other countries, all over the world, which is why he’s projecting power now.


65 posted on 05/11/2014 5:39:48 PM PDT by BobL
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To: exit82
I also am interested in what folks here think Putin’s endgame is. Is the absorption of parts of the Ukraine part of a bigger overall strategy he has in order to dominate other Slavic and ethnic Russian nations, or all of Europe?.

Courtesy of the Kremlin, Putin's 'State of the Union' after annexing Crimea in March (full speech):

VLADIMIR PUTIN: ...Back then, it was impossible to imagine that Ukraine and Russia may split up and become two separate states. However, this has happened.

Unfortunately, what seemed impossible became a reality. The USSR fell apart. Things developed so swiftly that few people realised how truly dramatic those events and their consequences would be...It was only when Crimea ended up as part of a different country that Russia realised that it was not simply robbed, it was plundered.

At the same time, we have to admit that by launching the sovereignty parade Russia itself aided in the collapse of the Soviet Union. And as this collapse was legalised, everyone forgot about Crimea and Sevastopol ­– the main base of the Black Sea Fleet. Millions of people went to bed in one country and awoke in different ones, overnight becoming ethnic minorities in former Union republics, while the Russian nation became one of the biggest, if not the biggest ethnic group in the world to be divided by borders.

I believe that the Europeans, first and foremost, the Germans, will also understand me. Let me remind you that in the course of political consultations on the unification of East and West Germany, at the expert, though very high level, some nations that were then and are now Germany’s allies did not support the idea of unification. Our nation, however, unequivocally supported the sincere, unstoppable desire of the Germans for national unity. I am confident that you have not forgotten this, and I expect that the citizens of Germany will also support the aspiration of the Russians, of historical Russia, to restore unity.

I believe him on this. His objective for now is to 'restore unity' for the Russian people and of 'historical Russia'. Essentially reclaiming the Greater Russia that he feels was lost when the USSR collapsed. Not a Communist anymore, but a Russian nationalist and revanchist with the knowledge and experiences of a KGB agent.

His audience in that speech loved it, spontaneously chanting Russia, giving him a standing ovation, and women bursting into tears with the official return of Crimea to Mother Russia. I have no doubt that this whole episode has vastly increased his popularity, which is apparently over 80% at the moment.

In the case of Ukraine, I think that he had already laid plans to seize parts of Ukraine, but he ended up putting those plans into motion when the pro-Russian President was deposed by the pro-EU faction. So he got the casus belli he wanted, and he quickly acted on it.

He almost certainly has plans for recapturing other parts of 'historical Russia', although he will probably wait until he thinks he has the best chance of success.

93 posted on 05/11/2014 6:42:40 PM PDT by Corporate Democrat
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To: exit82

First, get it straight that it’s not THE Ukraine, its simply “Ukraine” just like its not “The Russia.”


181 posted on 05/11/2014 11:24:45 PM PDT by ResisTyr ("Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God " ~Thomas Jefferson)
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To: exit82

Please tell me the difference between the “ruthless” KGB & “our” CIA. Do you seriously believe the CIA was/is any less “ruthless?”


182 posted on 05/11/2014 11:28:49 PM PDT by ResisTyr ("Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God " ~Thomas Jefferson)
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