Posted on 04/08/2014 8:07:42 AM PDT by don-o
WASHINGTON — The U.S. Marine Corps commandant has reacted swiftly to a female Marine officer’s complaint that women are unfairly precluded from trying a second time to pass the prestigious Marine Corps Infantry Officers Course, when men can have a second try.
In response to a question from a female Army officer at an Atlantic Council forum April 1, Gen. James F. Amos said he has ordered a change in the rules and lavished praise not only on Marine Corps 2nd Lt. Sage Santangelo, who protested the restriction, but on all his female Marines.
And, Amos said, he offered Santangelo a chance to go to Afghanistan while she awaits an opening in flight training.
“I got an answer back in about 14 nanoseconds. … So we’re cutting orders right now. Sage is going to go to Afghanistan, to join the Marine Expeditionary Brigade Forward over there,” the commandant said.
The question was sparked by an opinion article Santangelo wrote in the March 30 Washington Post in which she graphically described the tremendous physical ordeal young Marine officers endure in trying to qualify to lead Marine infantry. Despite her great desire and effort, she was physically unable to complete the initial endurance test, as did 25 male officers and the three other female Marines who tried that day.
So far, 14 women officers have tried to pass the 17-week infantry officers course at Marine Corps Base Quantico, Va., and all have been unable to complete it. Thirteen enlisted female Marines, however, have passed the somewhat less difficult basic infantry training school at Camp Lejeune, N.C.
The women have been given those chances because the Marine Corps, along with the Army, is attempting to determine if they can open ground combat jobs, including infantry, to women. Although military women are now able to serve in many combat-related positions, including aviation, military police and, for the Army, field artillery, they still are banned from the infantry.
Putting women through the infantry qualification schools is part of the Corps’ tests to see if they can meet the tough physical standards now required, and if those standards are necessary.
The Marines also are forming an experimental unit that would give a group of volunteers a chance to see if women can perform ground combat tasks over a prolonged period.
But in her article, Santangelo complained that her training in the Marine Officer Candidate School was not as physically demanding as what was required of male officer candidates, so she was not as prepared for the infantry course.
And, she noted, the men who failed the initial qualification test could apply for a second chance, but she could not.
Amos said he read Santangelo’s article, which he said “was superb,” and invited her to his Pentagon office to discuss the issue.
“When she brought up the point about the inability to recycle. … I went back to my folks and said, ‘we got to fix this.’ So we are,” he said.
Amos explained that the rule about not getting a second chance was intended to protect the unsuccessful officer’s ability to get into their future military occupational specialty and be positioned for the critical selection for a regular commission, rather than staying as a reserve officer, which limits their potential for a career. But, he said, “we’ll take care of them.”
Amos said he “bristled at the headline” on the Post article, which said the female officer “failed,” saying it “took enormous courage” for Santangelo and the other female Marines to attempt to win a position in what has been a male-dominated field for the Corps’ 238-year history. “I’m a big fan of our females,” he said.
In his presentation and answers to other questions, Amos spelled out the challenges he faces in trying to shape the Corps to continue to meet the nation’s challenges, when the fiscal constraints imposed by sequestration force him to reduce his force structure to have enough money to maintain combat readiness in the near term and for modernization for future capability.
And he strongly defended his top acquisition priority, the short takeoff, vertical landing F-35B, and said his top ground combat need, the Amphibious Combat Vehicle, is moving ahead and he will soon announce the road map for acquiring the initial replacement for the Vietnam-vintage AAV-7 amphibious assault vehicles.
LOL, I understand where you are coming from. I like SF for a week and then I feel like I am an expat in a foreign country.
Fortunately my daughter actually looks like a real woman. Very intelligent with serious real world smarts, *highly* motivated/driven. Which has been a *trial* at times.
No, even stranger, SFPD has some of the toughest requirements in the country. We would get calls several nights a week while she was in it, telling us what was happening. Occasionally in tears from how much she hurt that day. I thought that some of the physical punishment was over the top for either sex.
If you have graduated from their academy you can go to almost any PD in the country and get on without anything more than applying.
But...and the big but...it’s kind of a waste because a high percentage do just that shortly after graduation because the politics of the city and the PS are so awfully messed up. She was paid over $6,000 a month while in the academy (for 8 months). Imagine that within a year of graduation, well over 50% had left and gone elsewhere. I don’t know the exact numbers, I’ll have to ask her. Huge expense wasted.
We were silently relieved when she decided not to stay in LE. I sometimes think she did it just to prove she could. Happened before.
OK, I’ll re-read it. I may have been too quick off the keyboard.
“But...and the big but...it’s kind of a waste because a high percentage do just that shortly after graduation because the politics of the city and the PS are so awfully messed up. She was paid over $6,000 a month while in the academy (for 8 months). “
-— That is very high pay for newbies and I don’t understand it.
The city deserves the loss if they are too stupid to see this.
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What is a page 13?
OK, for the most part I concede your point. The rational for giving men a second chance while denying the women made no sense to me.
However, I still take her to task (just a little) in the complaint that her OCS training was inadequate because it was easier than the men. She is right that it shouldn’t be easier. But I believe that in spite of that (or because of it), she had the ultimate responsibility to know what was expected of her in the Marine Corps Infantry Officers Course and prepared physically if needed on her own initiative.
I would say that to a man if he said OCS was not enough training.
It’s all beyond what I would have been willing to do, so I am not criticizing from a “holier than thou” position. I can honestly say, based on a lot of experience watching, that whatever my daughter’s ultimate capability to do something was, she ALWAYS was fully aware of what was to be expected of her ahead of jumping in. She’s somewhat over the top in that regard.
I'm not convinced that the pay is so excessive when all the variables were taken into account as she explained to me. 8 months is a long time to pay sustenance wages in that situation. Much less than that would have be nearly sustenance level.
Where the city and the PD are failing so badly is not realizing and understanding why the attrition rate is so high after graduation. But as we all know, with the left, the fault always lies elsewhere.
I am informed and have an opinion on women in combat roles from personal experience. I am not deriding the young lady, just the whole mess we created even entertaining the thought of them in combat.
NYPD’s pay for recruits is roughly $3500.00 per month.
If it can be done in NYC it certainly can be done in SF.
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It is taking a public position rather than using the chain-of-command that is appalling.
Debate the merits of her argument but you cannot debate her acting inappropriately by writing a public piece, ‘whining’ in a way, rather than exhausting chain-of-command and IG opportunities that exist in the military to right wrongs.
She went public to force the USMC to cave, to bend to her position by using external political pressures. . .and that is nothing to celebrate.
Others may disagree.
If she went up the chain (all the way, to include the CINC), and if she went the IG route, then she could have gone the congressional route. She chose not to. She chose to by-pass the processes and procedures in place and jump right into the public arena.
That is wrong.
SF was in a bind (may still be) in that they were experiencing mass retirements because so many of the police were hired post war and not so staggered.
They may have found it necessary to attract the necessary interest. Again, the training requirements were (I imagine) more demanding than NYC.
I don’t think that $3,500 in NYC is a living wage. In SF after taxes it would be very, very tough unless you had a spouse helping support you, or you lived with your parents. Also, in SF you had better own a car when in the academy. Big expense. SF is probably overpaying, but not to the degree which you and I would immediately assume.
Nonetheless, the amount of money we are talking about over 8 months isn’t that big of deal in the larger scheme of things. The real waste is the poor retention of officers.
Again, by reading what is provided you would make a more informed statement. The rigors and nature of the test are kept from the candidates in advance as part of the mental demand structure. In such a situation it is the responsibility of the instructor to insure that instruction or preparation is sufficient that if the prep is mastered the exam can be mastered. What she faced was the equivalent of training for a 4000 meter swim then going to the pool and told the race would be 8000 meters, surprise. The men weren't told it was an 8000 meter swim in advance, but they were trained to swim 8000 meters during their training.
It is clear here the inadequacy of preparation is the fault of the instructor not the student especially since there was inequality in the nature of preparation presented to different students.
As indicated, knowing what to expect, she would fully prepare herself for the challenge if given a second chance. I'm sure many men would say the same. The difference is the man gets the second chance.
If they can earn the position, there is no valid reason for denying them the opportunity other than sexism.
Another thoughtful statement on your part. Note that you were attacking the general not the woman. Or perhaps you think generals have no place in the services.
No, those words are the author's, Otto Kreisher and amount to paraphrasing since they were not in quotes or directly attributed.
The general only stated that the article "was superb" and “When she brought up the point about the inability to recycle. … I went back to my folks and said, ‘we got to fix this.’ So we are,”
For her part, Santangelo did not question the standards, only the equality of opportunity to meet those standards.
I read what was provided. If you know more about it than that, good. I’m only commenting on the information in that piece.
Frankly, I don’t give that much of a damn anymore anyway. This is barely significant anyway to the reality of what is being done to the military in total.
Becoming a Marine Officer is a process. (My son was commissioned in December.) He attended two summer sessions at Quantico - one after sophomore year and one after junior. Both sessions have PFT as well as field exercises. His second session was about 20% smaller that his first. Some departed on their request; one was caught in thievery; others washed out. Part of them failed to meet the physical standards.
Now, if the standards were raised for the men - say, a 16 minute three mile - it is a logical inference that more men would be washing out.
Raising the standards for the women WILL increase the wash out rate for them and hence, fewer woman officers across the board. It’s pretty simple stuff.
The article included a link to Santangelo's piece so the information was provided. If you did not read Santangelo's piece, it is unfortunate since as the General indicated it "is superb" and reflects an attitude that would prevent much of what is happening to the military if followed by people in positions of power.
I see what you did there. Well played.
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