Posted on 03/18/2014 5:28:37 AM PDT by McGruff
Ukraine despatched tanks into the rolling terrain of the Donbas basin on Monday, putting its biggest guns back on the scene of the biggest armoured clash in history.
It was in this bleak but fertile landscape along what is now Ukraine's border with Russia that the Red Army routed Nazi Panzers to turn the course of the Second World War.
But as Ukraine's dilapidated tank units moved to muddy berms in the fields south of Donetsk city as part of face-saving mobilisation, the guns of T-64 and T-72 models were this time pointed towards Russia.
In responding to a reported Russian military build-up, however, Ukraine's military immediately ran into groups of activists who tried to obstruct their movements. In the village of Elenvola on the edge of the great plain, there was anger at the manoeuvres from their own countrymen.
"Russians and Ukrainians don't want to fight each other," said Ivan Inozemev, a prison warder. "We would be happy to be part of Russia if that's what happens."
(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...
I am not a pacifist at all....
I am a pragmatist.
We are not talking about the Russians invading the east coast, or Alaska.
In fact, if they want to invade somewhere, let them go back into Afghanistan.
I am pragmatic in that the Ukrainians can retreat, conserve their army intact, and fight when they can put up a good fight.
I apologize for my use of "idiotic" in reference to your comments That was wrong of me. I believe in civil discourse, and calm debate. Please forgive me.
However,I'm still struggling with how anyone ( and others here have expressed the same viewpoint as yours) can so easily advocate throwing away lives and equipment, to no end.
So why waste the tanks? Might as well just send the Ukrainian troops out into an open field to get killed. And they can save the tanks for later. There you go, plenty of tombstones in the fight for freedom, which apparently you think is the most important part of the fight.
“You have absolutely no idea what modern weapons can do”
I’m guessing the people back then would have figured out a plan rather than just surrendering.
Yeah? Well what if the other guys might is bigger than yours? Then might makes dead. Pacifism has nothing to do with it. “No poor dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won by making the other poor dumb bastard die for HIS country”. Sending tanks out with no air cover is a sure way to be the first of the poor dumb bastards.
Remember the scene in Dr Zhivago when the Russian troops revolted?
That’s precisely what the Ukrainian forces will do, if they try to pull this stunt.
The weapons available to both sides in the Revolution were about the same. That’s NOT the case here.
The ones that are not throwing flowers.
The truth is, we have no way to determine the facts on the ground. The Ukraine we support may well be a fiction, invented by Soros, the EU, and a small minority in Lwow and its hinterlands who SHOULD be free of Russia.
The whole progressivist "captive nations - prisonhouse of nations" meme has led to a century of turmoil. Very few peoples are suited for self-rule.
And the difference between digging in your tanks and infantry in Ukraine is what?
When Russia moves in on Ukraine proper—not Crimea, it will be based on protecting the Russian population in Eastern Ukraine, and the default of Ukrainian loans ($20B plus or so) to Moscow.
Moscow can call those loans due at just about any time.
The combination of the two will “justify” the move.
My guess is that will deem the military assets to be collateral for that “collection.”
Eastern Ukraine is gone.
Color it in on your map.
Everything that borders the Azov sea is gone.
It should be remembered that the eastern Ukraine, including the Donbas, is populated with a majority of Russians. I imagine Putin would be looking to annex all of the Ukraine east of the Dneiper-unless he wants the whole thing.
“Ukraine should lease an airbase to an EU lead effort of Nato. Should not be lead by the U.S”
So essentially, you believe the Germans, should fight Russia, in Ukraine to support a coup in Kiev? Basically 150 miles from Volgograd? (Stalingrad) Yeah,,bright idea.
I guess the EU does need living space. Lets call it lebensraum.
One thought is that Ukraine was be Federated, much like the former Czechoslovakia, with more or less two Federated areas with a weak central government in Kiev.
NATO will fight to the last Pole.
I was just looking at a map of the Russian ethnic majorities. Actually, they are the far eastern provinces, but also those immediately north of Crimea and over to Moldova.
I understand there are Russian troops in Moldova, but I cannot recall where I heard that...so I could be wrong.
If I were Putin I would cut off the Black sea and land lock Ukraine. Then the oil and gas pipelines from the Middle east would be controlled by Russia.
That would pretty much put Ukraine back to third world status at the whim of the Russians.
Charge of the Light Brigade was in a battle in Crimea. Where Euros, were battling Russians, there on their home playing field.
Is nobody noticing that Russian bases and troops were there in the 1850s?
My wife’s father was a first generation American from Poland.
I swear, those guys hold a grudge. THEY would fight to the last Pole.
Of course some Poles aren’t too enthusiastic about fighting for the “Banderowcy” neither.
“I would be very surprised if Ukraine had not wargamed or planned for the possibility of a Russian invasion”
Does the Colorado national guard plan for battles with the Kansas guard?
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