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To: daniel1212

You are employing a typical spurious liberal and annihilationism hermeneutic, that of determining truth by what to what you believe conforms to your idea of a “loving God.”


It seems that way, but there is much more to it. I know that God speaks to us at a human level. That is why the parables use common and plain language (even though Jesus made many of his comments via parables precisely so people would NOT understand). I look at the personality of our God all through the bible and how He deals with people that have found themselves at the receiving end of His wrath. The message is always the same: Total destruction. Sometimes entire races. Even threat of them being utterly removed even from the minds of future generations.

And often, when the fate of the lost after the great white throne judgement is called “second death”, perish, destruction, etc. sometimes there is an eternal ring as you mentioned in Mark 9:43-44. But in those cases the eternal fate of the lost is not being described but, rather, the eternal existence of the cause. e.g. the worm not dying and the fire not being quenched merely speaks to the permanence of their destruction. i.e. they ain’t comin’ back.

I can’t speak for Satan and his angels because I don’t know how complete their knowledge of eternity is compared to that of man. Just as man’s punishment for sin is different from that of the animals (they are not held accountable at all), satans punishment may be different from ours. My knowledge of the nuances of who he is and what he knows is limited.

Another important thing to consider is what the bible actually means when it speaks of “forever and ever” and “eternity”. Personally, I see time as a current that flows in an ocean called eternity. I don’t believe it is the passage of time as we know it.

And also, when making the case that the lost will suffer eternally, people use Revelation way too much. As I mentioned in a previous post, Revelation is one of my favorite books of the bible, but I understand that it is steeped in allegory and symbolism. Personally, I think all of that allegory in Revelation regarding forever and ever and eternity is saying that the lost, who are removed from God’s presence, are dead and they will stay dead. After all, a strong theme in the bible is that there is no life outside the presence of God.

And this doesn’t even address that the eternal suffering concept simply does not jibe with the God of the bible as he presents Himself and as he deals with men and sin throughout the bible.


24 posted on 02/20/2014 7:09:49 AM PST by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf
Man it seems you can type fast!

That is why the parables use common and plain language (even though Jesus made many of his comments via parables precisely so people would NOT understand).

But He was speaking in plain language and not parables when warning of being cast into the lake of fire in eternal punishment. Moreover, figurative language has its corresponding spiritual equivalent, and any one hearing the Lord warning of being cast into a place "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:48) would understand He was not speaking of just being toasted in the end, but of ongoing punishment in the spiritual realm.

Nor was Lk. 16:19-33 referring to something other than postmortem punishment, as explained here .

I look at the personality of our God all through the bible and how He deals with people that have found themselves at the receiving end of His wrath. The message is always the same: Total destruction. Sometimes entire races. Even threat of them being utterly removed even from the minds of future generations.

But based upon this reasoning then the reward of the righteous is only earthly as well, yet just as God speak of eternal life so He also speaks of eternal destruction.

Just as man’s punishment for sin is different from that of the animals (they are not held accountable at all), satans punishment may be different from ours.

That again would require the elect to also have an eternity like that of animals, while rather than making a difference btwn the punishment of fallen angels and that of the lost, the Lord places them in the same place, and only speaks of eternal torment.

And this doesn’t even address that the eternal suffering concept simply does not jibe with the God of the bible as he presents Himself and as he deals with men and sin throughout the bible.

That is simply not the case but is forcing God to conform to your idea of God, as He both deals with the wicked by slaughtering them in the temporal realm and, as said, being tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:10,11)

33 posted on 02/20/2014 7:40:38 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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