Posted on 02/20/2014 3:05:32 AM PST by iowamark
That again would require the elect to also have an eternity like that of animals, while rather than making a difference btwn the punishment of fallen angels and that of the lost, the Lord places them in the same place, and only speaks of eternal torment.
As for your analogy, It's ok as far as it goes. Except that it is always risky to reason from analogy. The validity of your conclusions depend on the correspondences in the analogy.
In this case, it's not that the woman is in a perfectly great place, and the man offers to marry her and give her good stuff, or torture her, but not let her remain in the state that she is already in.
No. The situation is that she is in a poor situation, and the man offers to save her from it.
Eternal damnation is the default position of all mankind. A way to be saved from it is offered, but can be rejected. God casts no one into Hell (which I am using in the sense of a place of eternal torment). They freely choose to go there.
As far as interpretations of Revelation, I certainly do not insist that my interpretation is the correct one. I believe that it is, but this is a subject on which I am willing to concede that the possibilities that it is something else are quite substantial.
However that may be, I believe in an eternal torment of some kind, whether it consists of fire which burns that does not consume for all eternity, or just the knowledge of separation from God, and what you are missing out on. I lean toward the former.
However, I can find no Biblical justification for, say, death as obliteration and total destruction of the consciousness.
That is simply not the case but is forcing God to conform to your idea of God, as He both deals with the wicked by slaughtering them in the temporal realm and, as said, being tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14:10,11)
It also says “the smoke of their torment” rises forever and ever. The original Lucy show broadcast waves are STILL eminating from our solar system and will until the universe is destroyed. However, the show only lasted a half hour. This implies that what happened to them WILL linger in eternity.
However, it could be translated that they suffer for all eternity. It’s why there is any discussion here at all. :-)
The thing is, when both sides find themselves arguing “true” meanings of words, especially words that are used in heavily symbolic and allegoric scripture, nobody wants to be “married” to tightly to their position. Honestly, my MAIN personal reason for believing the annihilation interpretation vs the turn or burn one is that it more fits with the personality of my God as presented in the bible as well as His dealings with me personally.
This is the canvas on which my interpretations of all these “Fate of the lost” opinions I have are written.
Genesis 1:26
I guess I should have said scripture that supports such a position. Using Genesis 1:26 to support it is like using John 14:2 to say that there are many mansions, when that is a grossly broad interpretation of scripture, much as translating me saying I’ll pick you up after work in my car, being translated “Cuban leaf is going to pick me up in a “limo” without knowledge of what kind of car I own.
It’s wishful thinking.
We are created in God’s image and likeness. What that really means regarding what God looks like and how eternal we are is definitely up for speculation. One could even argue that we “were” created eternal until Adama and Eve ate of the apple, and it takes the blood of Christ to get it back - blood that is not available to those that die in their sin.
As far as the mansions you mentioned regarding John 14--Jesus regularly referenced souls and people as buildings ("Tear down this temple and I will rebuild it in three days"). That passage means (to me) that we, as believers are the mansions, with our eternal, perfect bodies, living within God. There are many mansions in my Father's House.
I sincerely appreciate youar attitude about this. It actually corresponds to what the writer of the article said in his conclusion: “Support can be found through the Holy Scriptures to back up the case for eternal torture as well as the case for annihilation in Hell.”
But I do take issue with you regarding this statement: However, I can find no Biblical justification for, say, death as obliteration and total destruction of the consciousness.
Fact is, most scripture that discusses the fate of the lost, especially when comparing them to the saved, if one translates the plain language, indicates permanent ending. It is the way a person would interpret John 3:16, as well as phrases like “second death”, death, destruction, etc.
I think a fun side study would be of the word “punishment”, it’s meaning and sources and the words translated to that word in scripture. Sometimes punishment doesn’t hurt at all.
God’s image is not a physical likeness-it is an eternal soul.
I could go down a serious rabbit hole here, but my point was merely that we could argue until death what “in God’s image” means since now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face. i.e. we have partial knowledge that is sorely lacking to come up with a difinitive answer to the question. The answer is NOT in Genesis 1:26.
As far as the mansions you mentioned regarding John 14—Jesus regularly referenced souls and people as buildings (”Tear down this temple and I will rebuild it in three days”). That passage means (to me) that we, as believers are the mansions, with our eternal, perfect bodies, living within God. There are many mansions in my Father’s House.
I would disagree with the author however on one point. Mega-churches are not ipso facto world-centered rather than Christ-centered.
Indeed, I've never met a person who attended Gateway in the Dallas/Ft Worth metroplex who was not deeply committed to Christ and Him surpassingly above all else. No doubt there are some, but I've never met them. Then again, that mega-church preaches heavily and directly from Scripture and has many other ministries beyond the weekly service.
This link takes a different approach:
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html
Thing is, when you debate subjects like this, one of two things happens. Either you change your position, or you learn better to support your position.
Within those two are all sorts of things: the stubborn person that refuses to learn anything, the person who changes their opinion with the wind, etc. But there is nothing wrong with being steadfast in ones views, if one can back them up.
Of course, you’ll always find people who disagree with you. And often they just like to argue for the sake of arguing. I confess that I fall into that rut from time to time. But it really is important to be able to support your own opinion, and often one increases that support in the tasks required to support it against someone who disagrees and can articulate why.
It’s one of the reasons I come here. I’m looking to be convinced I’m wrong. Sometimes I come across something that looks to be promising only to be disappointed. But even that experience solidifies my views in the good way.
Yes. I agree.
I can’t quite remember the bible verse that says salvation depends on the size of your local church. Lol.
LOLOL! Soooo very true, dear brother in Christ!
A very simple biblical answer: Eph 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast."
I continue to be surprised by the enormity of what happened at the Cross. Sure, I understand that Jesus Christ left perfection, lived among us, and willingly submitted to being sacrificed for us. This alone is so big it's hard to appreciate how great a love this is and how easy salvation has been made for us. However, just recently Gamecock posted a thread by Steven Keller in which he points out how the civil state was separated from the religious order by the Cross because the penalty has been paid. The old order was compeletly turned upside down at the Cross. Yet today, just as in the Apostolic Era, the "wise" laugh at the simplicity of The Gospel.
We are so blessed beyond our understanding just because we have faith.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
So God is a Spirit, and that’s the sole similarity we have with Him.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
God isn’t subject to our beliefs. We’re subject to His. He can do with us as He wishes as our Creator.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
But I’m sure you don’t think these “eternals” or “everlastings” mean what they say either.
And others have shown you verses that indicate the eternality of hell and the lake of fire. This understanding is what millennia of Christians have believed. Annihilationism was regarded as heresy.
I guess my question is, what if you’re wrong? Is it our responsibility to strive to know God as He is, or to strive to know god as we want him to be?
I believe God can do with us as He pleases (See Romans 9). I worship Him in His sovereignty over us. You seem to be horrified at such sovereignty. I’d venture to say that you’re Arminian in theology. I’m not, because I’d have to ignore too much Scripture, squint with both eyes, and stand on my head to reach your conclusions. :)
When the Bible says that
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
and
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
What you are reading is that the "lake of fire" is a metaphor for the "second death".
What I am reading is that the "second death" is a metaphor for the "lake of fire".
In other words, we disagree on which is the reality and which is the metaphor.
Oh, well, we'll all find out plenty soon enough :)
Thanks for the link. It looks interesting. I will have to look at it later, though, as lunch time is over, and I have a meeting.
:)
;-)
Exactly. :)
Yes, you're quite correct. God is a God of justice. He gives us our wages-what we are due. And He would be unjust if He did not give us what we're due. That is, unless someone else paid our price.
But people are blinded to wanting and desiring to live a righteous life before God. They are enslaved to sin. And because they are enslaved to sin, they are free against living a righteous life.
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved
This is most important in understanding. Unbelievers cannot understand spiritual things unless God opens their hearts and eyes. They are like the men of Sodom groping for Lot's door but never reaching it. And they'll make all sorts of excuses. We were once like them, walking in the ways of this world. It is Christians that have been blessed through grace in understanding the mind of Christ. If we understand this principle, we can be much more tolerant of godless people living unrighteous lives and less tolerant of seasoned Christians who seem to want to join in with the frivolities.
Bookmark
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.