Posted on 02/16/2014 8:20:17 AM PST by SoFloFreeper
What! That's insane!
I read it on the interweb so it must be true!;-)
Seriously, I hope you don't (see anything yet), but what we call hell on earth does not hold a candle to the real thing!
It seems like we are not going to change each other’s minds. One day we’ll find out for sure. To my human mind, your doctrine “makes sense” but it is not what I read in the Bible, so I will stick with my beliefs. After all, when the Day comes, I won’t have anything to lose while you...
I don’t want anyone to believe what I believe simply because I believe it. I want people to study the Scriptures and learn what is the real, absolute truth. I used to believe as you and probably most Christians, but after much prayer and study I have come to believe that Scripture preaches death (as in the ending of life or existence) to those who don’t believe and eternal life to those who do.
Lastly, while I agree that this issue will be finalized after we die, I don’t understand why you posted, “when the Day comes, I wont have anything to lose while you...”
What is it that you think I will lose? I know that I am saved and will live for eternity with Jesus.
You are right of course. But I got a small taste of it...enough to know I don’t ever want to go there again.
If you are saved, I agree you have nothing to lose, because it won’t matter how is right or wrong any longer. I am sorry if I mistook you for one of those people who manage to know a lot of Bible verses without being saved. Actually, I thought you might be SDA.
Thanks for setting me straight. ;-)
I’m not an SDA, but what makes you think that all SDA aren’t saved? I used to have long spiritual discussions with a former coworker who was a SDA, and while we disagreed about a number of different issues, I am convinced he was saved.
SDA?
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Not personally, but Herbert Armstrong’s variety of it introduced me to the concept.
I don’t agree with some of his stuff, but it’s interesting nonetheless.
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I should hope not. I can only judge actions, not hearts. That's why I listed thought of the soul's immortality as the first possibility. I was giving the benefit the doubt.
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The Greek word "apollymi" (as in destroy) has numerous meanings one of which is "to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell."
Mat 10:28 is not a statement that there is no life after death.
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There is no other place in the Bible where what you say is true. The Greek word "apollymi" (αποκτειναι) always means "kill" or "destroy".
If you have a reference other than Matthew 10:28 that disproves my claim, I will happily concede.
Otherwise, "kill" means "kill", no more, no less.
All I ever want to know about SDA I learned it from Ellen White.
yes, it is pretty clear. not necessarily comprehensive since it had to fit publication constraints. but the source site, run by those educated in the languages of the original text and in theology, are a wee bit more trustworthy than those who cite wikipedia as a fount of knowledge.
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You’re getting abrasive for no reason.
I didn’t cite Wikipedia as the end-all and be-all of knowledge. I used it as an example of the author not even scanning the most rudimentary of sources (and I consider Wikipedia to be a VERY rudimentary source - a starting point ONLY, eventually leading to actual, dependable, primary sources) when making arguments for or against a particular position.
The fact that the author conflated a universalist position with the annihilationist one is a good example of poor argumentation. Annihilationism shares nothing with universalism; it would be easier to argue that the doctrine of eternal torture leads to universalism than to argue annihilationism does.
Does your “bye” mean that you no longer want to discuss the matter with me? I still have questions I’d like ask you, if you’d be gracious enough to answer them.
I’ll start off with the following:
Question #1:
When does the soul begin to exist?
Question #2:
Assuming souls are personal and individual, are we each responsible for the state of our souls, or do ancestors affect the state of an individual’s soul, e.g. must a son’s soul pay for the sins of the father? Does the salvation of a father affect the son’s soul in any direct way?
Question #3:
Is the belief that Jesus Christ is the Savior and the Only Begotten Son of God the only way to enter Heaven (or to attain eternal life)?
Ellen White never entered into any equation of mine. Like I said, I’m not SDA.
Poisoning the well doesn’t help, since correct ideas can come from undesirable people. The Scientologists, for example, tell everybody to get off of drugs. That doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to be a junkie.
Not being with the Creator after death is destruction. Actually, it is worse than destruction.
I don't usually do this but you can handle it.
You are playing with fire. Get serious about this matter...whether the suffering is finite as you suggest or eternal. It isn't something you want to endure.
Is it?
This isn't something that you can get ONLY your mind around. Your heart is also required.
As Gandhi said, "I like Christ...I just don't like Christians."
Christians suck because they are human just as you are. And full of crap.
Consider that Yeshuah is exactly who he said He is. Don't listen to Christians.
Listen to your own heart! Your heart won't betray you, will it?
Ask your heart...and ask the Creator if there might be one. Is Yeshuah the Moshiach? Search for the truth with all your heart...because your destiny may hang in the balance.
Good luck, my friend!
You have the answer in your own heart. Go in search of it.
Until you do, you are only engaging in some kind of intellectual masturbation (read mindless avoidance) instead of answering the call of that which is speaking to you...calling your name.
And unfortunately, there is that nagging problem for unbelievers...it might just be true.
I can and will answer any and every problem re: Christianity you can come with...and I welcome the opportunity!
Christ is your Savior and Father. He will leave you young and skinny...and never angry.
He knows you and is calling your name. And BTW...he really loves you. More than anyone you have ever known.
I know this because of His influence in my life. He pulled my fat from the fire. He is the last thing on my mind upon going to sleep and the first thing in the morning.
This is not due to me...this is Him.
I beg you...do not turn your back on the One who loves you so much he gave His life for you and you alone.
Your premise is faulty, and therefore your conclusion is. The point of human chastisement is to change behavior, but punishment is also a penalty befitting the crime, and for some crimes the penalty warrants death. You therefore must be opposed to capital punishment in Scripture .
In addition, since man is eternal, his reward or punishment also is. Hell is just as real as Heaven, and the Lake of Fire just as real as the Heavenly City.
And the Lord was not bluffing when He warned,
"And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:" (Mark 9:42-43)
And such would have no deterrent effect if it was merely annihilation. Many would trade 70+ years fulfilling lusts in exchange for simply being annihilated in the end.
This presumes that the laws of physics all apply in the spiritual realm, and which do not in Lk. 16:19ff, and that "killing" in the spiritual sense cannot be some everlasting form of destruction, but in which the soul cannot be destroyed.
From http://reformedthinker.blogspot.com/2013/05/refuting-shepherds-chapel-hell-matthew.html: If one discusses the subject of hell with a student of Shepherd's Chapel probably the first verse that they will quote to defend annihilationism is Matthew 10:28.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28, KJV)
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 10:6, KJV)
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. (Matthew 18:11, KJV)
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? (Luke 15:4, KJV)
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.(Luke 15:24, KJV)As can be seen the Greek word apollymi does not mean total annihilation, blotted out, or cessation of existence. Arnold Murray, as he has done many times, misuses the Greek or shows lack of understanding of how the Greek language works.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matt. 25:46, KJV)This punishment of hell Christ describes as everlasting. I have heard Shepherd's Chapel students claim that since annihilation is everlasting then it is everlasting punishment. This is not possible in the Greek syntax. the word for everlasting is aionios in the Greek and it modifies the nature of the punishment, not the results of the punishment. In this verse aionios modifies kalasis "punishment", which is an action noun. Greek nouns that end with sis will focus on the action of the noun and not it's results. You can compare 2 Thess. 2:16 to see a parallel. In that verse aionios modifies paraklesis comfort, another sis ending action noun. So this verse proves that Christ taught an everlasting hell of punishment. Also we have this:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:11, KJV)This again is another favorite verse for Shepherd's Chapel. When you use this verse to prove the Biblical view of everlasting hell then they will jump on you and say "look it says the smoke of their torment ascendeth for ever and ever. Only the smoke.". Ha! Gotcha right? Well no.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev. 20:10, KJV)After judgment is passed down to Satan and his minions they are all thrown into the lake of fire and tormented day and night forever and ever. If this verse teaches anything, it at least teaches that Satan is tormented in hell for eternity. If you continue reading Revelation chapter 20 then you will see that all those in hell are cast into this exact same lake of fire (Rev. 20:14, also Matt 25:41). Again since they are cast into the same lake of fire the Devil is then the same punishment is dealt out. Also if you continue reading Revelation and in the last chapter (after all this has taken place) you see that the unsaved were not annihilated in Revelation chapter 20 but cast outside the Great City:
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. (Rev. 22:14-15, ESV)I have heard the students of Shepherd's Chapel claim that "forever and ever" does not mean eternity but simply a period of time. This is absolutely impossible in the Greek. The Greek phrase is eis tous aionas ton aionon and is often translated as forever, forevermore, and forever and ever. It is also used of the attributes of God which we know are unchangeable and are eternal. Please compare how this Greek phrase is used in the following verses of Scripture especially the ones in Revelation: Gal. 1:5, Phil. 4:20, 1 Tim. 1:17, 2 Tim. 4:18, Heb. 13:21, 1 Pet. 4:11, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 1:18, Rev. 4:9, Rev. 4:10, Rev. 5:13, Rev. 7:12, Rev. 10:6, Rev. 11:15, Rev. 15:7, Rev. 22:5
From The eternality of Hell - a refutation of annihilationism; by Steve Johnstone: http://www.academia.edu/5579795/The_eternality_of_Hell_-_a_refutation_of_annihilationism: It is difficult to better Douglas Moos comments on 2 Thess 1:8-9: The words need not mean destruction in the sense of extinction. In fact, leaving aside for the moment judgment texts, none of the key terms usually has this meaning in the Old and New Testaments. Rather, they usually refer to the situation of a person or object that has lost the essence of its nature or function The key words for destroy and destruction can also refer to land that has lost its fruitfulness ( olethros in Ezek 6:14; 14:16); to ointment that is poured out wastefully and to no apparent purpose ( apoleia in Matt 26:8; Mark 14:4); to wineskins that can no longer function because they have holes in them ( apollymi in Matt 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37) to a coin that is useless because it is lost ( apollymi in Luke 15:9); or to the entire world that perishes, as an inhabited world, in the flood ( apollymi in 2 Pet 3:6).
In none of these cases do the objects cease to exist; they cease to be useful or to exist in their original, intended state The people who are the objects of destruction continue to exist in some form. It makes little sense to describe people who have been annihilated as being separate from the presence of God. 27 Grudem agrees, saying, It must be said that the passages which speak of destruction do not necessarily imply the cessation of existence. 28 -
Also: http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm
In addition, Lk. 16:19-33 itself is clear enough to refute Annihilationism, as it is not a parable, as in parables not only are real names never used, but neither is science fiction. And if Annihilationism were true then one could not be dead yet be conscious and sensible to pain, but here a man is dead yet crying out in torments, not only in thirst but in fear that his loved ones come into this place of torment.
Despite the inability of atheists to see it, first, even though higher motives are required for a Christian to follow Christ, appeal to self-preservation is a legitimate means of salvific motivation, thus even in this life it is the threat of punishment which is the base motivation for many in many things.
But while this often may be effectual in bringing a souls to repentance, it is the love of Christ, in response to so great a salvation for so great a sinner at so great a cost, that is to most supremely motivate the believer.
"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:" "And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." (2 Corinthians 5:14-15)
"We love him, because he first loved us." "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (1 John 4:19-20)
"Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;" "And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour." (Ephesians 5:1-2)
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)
Second, God did not create man just to destroy Him, but to be the recipient of His grace and to respond to it, and thus to manifest what is good and evil. This requires that one be able to make choices, and with choices come consequences. And as man is eternal, so are the consequences, and what one does with the Truth given him, which is obeyed will lead to The Truth, Jesus Christ, reveals what he really loves, and where he will spend eternity.
Your post also touches on the issue of how there can be a good God yet suffering in the world, which issue is called Theodicy.
In which my proposals are that God could have,
1. made us (and angels) with no moral sense and or deprived us from the moral ability to respond to or choose good [morally insensible].
2. granted us free moral agency, but never have given us anything to choose between [negation of moral choices].
3. provided moral revelation and influences but always have moved us to do good, and never have allowed us to choose evil (such as make believing in God and choosing good so utterly compelling like God appearing daily and doing miracles on demand, and preventing any seeming evidence to the contrary so that no man could attempt excuses [effective negation of any freedom to choose].
4. allowed us to do evil, but immediately reversed any effects [negation of moral consequences].
5. allowed us to do bad, but restricted us to a place where it would harm no one but ourselves [restriction of moral consequences].
6. allowed us to choose between good and evil, and to affect others by it, but not ultimately reward or punish us accordingly [negation of eternal moral consequences].
7. given us the ability to choose, and alternatives to chose from, and to face and overcome evil or be overcome by it, with the ability to effect others and things by our choices, and to exercise some reward or punishment in this life for morality, and ultimately reward or punishment us accordingly [pure justice].
8. in accordance with the above, except have manifested Himself in the flesh, and by Him to provide man a means of escaping the ultimate retribution of Divine justice, and instead receive unmerited eternal favor, at Gods own expense and credit, appropriated by a repentant obedient faith, in addition to the loss or gaining of certain rewards based on ones quality of work as a child of God.
And conversely, eternal punish to varying degrees those whose response to Gods revelation manifested they want evil, while making the evil that man does to work for the good of those who want good, and who thus love God, who is good [justice maintained while mercy and grace given.
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