Posted on 07/13/2013 4:41:58 AM PDT by markomalley
About 650,000 Defense Department civilians began doing their part this week to save the department nearly $2 billion — by not coming to work. They’re not exactly enthusiastic about pitching in.
But they found things to do. Some strategized ways to cut their own budgets, while others took the opportunity to formally protest their furloughs. According to the Merit System Protection Board, which adjudicates disputed personnel actions by the federal government, nearly 900 federal employees, including DOD workers, had filed appeals as of early Thursday.
Others worked out some of the frustration through exercise.
“On a normal day, I’d be working on combating terrorism in South Asia,” said Christine Smith, a civilian employee in the Office of the Secretary of Defense who was furloughed Monday. “Today, I’m going for a run.”
Smith was one of dozens of Pentagon workers who met Monday afternoon for a 5-mile “fun run” from the building’s north parking lot to the U.S. Capitol. But organizers unceremoniously cut it a mile short to symbolize the 20 percent pay cut imposed by the one-day-per-week furlough, which could run through September.
“That’s a mortgage payment each month that’s being lost — it’s very significant for my budget,” she said. Before jogging away, she added that she planned to make up some of her personal deficit through a renewed devotion to her hobby: extreme couponing.
Congress wouldn’t win any popularity contests among the furloughed.
“I hear many people complaining about the pay reduction, the decrease in leave earned and the retirement effects,” said Chett Forbus, a Navy veteran who is now a DOD civilian in Maine. “Those are the cold, hard effects of the bigger problem: elected officials.”
Forbus said he and his family now must “carry the burden of the inaction” by Congress and the president. Luckily, he said, he saw it coming and he and his family have been cutting expenses for the past year.
“We have saved everything that we could, canceled vacations, cut services, combined services, changed the way we grocery shop, basically just pinched the penny wherever we could,” he said. “We will survive because of proper planning. The overwhelming, scary part of this is the same elected officials have done nothing to prevent this from happening again.”
DOD civilians overseas are feeling the same pinch — trying to make the best of their involuntary free time, and worried about where it’s all headed.
The first of 11 furlough days were to begin Friday for colleagues Nancy Hines, Dee Trigilio and Gemmel Bagley, U.S. government civilians employed by the 86th Force Support Squadron on Ramstein Air Base, Germany.
The trio said they are taking the weekly mandatory pause from work and 20 percent pay cut in stride, and plan to tackle unfinished projects at home or to spend time with their children.
Hines, 54, plans to do yard work and car repairs, while Trigilio will transfer family photos to CDs and Bagley will stay at home with her children, ages 9 and 12.
“I’m looking forward to it,” Hines said. “I’m normally one who doesn’t take leave. Now there’s time to do your own ‘honey-do’ list, take advantage of day trips.”
They’ve found ways to tighten their budgets and have put off big purchases and family vacations. If it is necessary and strengthens the country, they can take it, each said.
“We’re doing our part to help,” said Trigilio, 44.
But it’s easy to be optimistic now, before some of the unknowns have become reality, the women said. They worry about how much extra work will pile up in their absence, about squeezing 40 hours of work into 32-hour weeks, and about actually making do with less income when the smaller paychecks start rolling in and medical premiums don’t budge.
They haven’t had a pay increase since 2010, and performance appraisal incentives for this year are likely on hold. Bagley, 42, is hopeful the furlough is a stopgap measure and won’t be repeated.
“To punish us again for next fiscal year would be the ultimate wrong,” she said.
Hines doesn’t see how it won’t happen again. “The budget is supposed to be less, that’s the rumor,” she said.
Hines said she’s worried about broader effects of furloughs. “What kind of signal are we sending to our adversaries when we’re having to furlough our civilians, when we’re not doing training or TDYs?”
For some DOD civilians, the furloughs are causing them to question the assumptions they’ve built their lives on.
When Rik Thibodeau, a Vicenza, Italy-based Army civilian, learned earlier this year he’d soon be losing workdays, he called a family meeting.
“I took my wife and my older kid aside. I sat everyone down and we had a talk,” said Thibodeau. “We basically talked about cutting back anywhere we could, even keeping the lights off when we’re not in a room.”
Thibodeau originally was attracted by the stability of government work, but said he is pondering whether he’d be better off in the private sector.
In addition to furlough cuts, he’s one of 600 overseas employees who face the loss of housing allowances because of an error by human resources officials that has indebted those workers for past payments received.
“The government has taken so much from me. When we get back to the States, I’m thinking about looking into another career field,” said Thibodeau, an operations planner for U.S. Army Africa. “Maybe I’ll go back to school and get my masters in something.”
How about the stupidity of sending billions to, dirtbag tin horn dictators in sh!thole countries that hate the freedoms we used to enjoy.
Congress is the problem, "we the people" are the solution.
hold these assclowns in DC accountable
“I put up with a ton of crap, dealt with my share of total idiots, and did so while drawing wages that were about half to 2/3 of what I would earn as a private sector person...and, why? Because I had an agreement with my country...do my bit now and reap the rewards later on. “
You do know that you are a defacto millionaire, right?
I’m not kidding.
Those sorts of agreements are the stuff of tyranny against those who must pay the bill.
Yes, a retired senior NCO is a millionaire. So are practically every federal retiree.
your money gets taken from people before they can even fractionally fund for themselves what “the government” gives you, or if you prefer “what the country promised you”.
It simply cannot all be paid. The federal sector - including civilian and military feels way too entitled to other peoples money.
No one (here) wants military retirement pay changed ex post facto. However, military service does not exempt anyone from changes in their current employment. Civil service is not an extension of military service, and prior service should not be a factor either way. (The veteran’s hiring preference is enough.)
I also don’t think anyone is suggesting that military retirement be used as a basis for discrimination. I am not aware of any initiative or directive to reduce civil service pay due to military retirement. Are you saying that this has occurred? I would expect a larger protest if that were the case...
This furlough is a game played by the current administration to get people to rally for continued government growth. The pain is not only real, but it’s intended. Once they get enough support, they will get the increases, but don’t expect that the money will be put to back into DoD.
Remember, you are not their target market; you are the target.
Nobody said life would be fair, and if there's one thing the government knows is how to screw people over.
What we need to do is to join together and hold these idiots in DC accountable, however that's accomplished.
I get a retirement from the military as an E6, which is not much, but it's something. I do not expect it to be there for much longer because of the criminal activity of Congress. Do they owe me a job, hell no, do they only my pension hell yes!
Do you see them taking a pay cut for sequestration, hell no! Do you see them changing retirement for military, they've already done that you have to wait till 62 now to draw your pension. When we all wake up and realize that we have a ruling class, and not elected body then maybe the shit will change.
“I know a lot of DOD employees who are considering just that”
No you don’t. they complain and “say” they are going to leave, but they never do. It’s too much money at the end, and of course that’s the problem for the folks who must provide their multi-million dollar retirement package, and then try to fund something far more modest for themselves.
“If you are in your late 40s and up...and have worked for the same company (or gov’t agency) since graduating from college, the prospects of going out and finding another job are sort of daunting. “
No. Not if you actually have a marketable skill and know how to work. This excludes the vast majority of federal workers, unfortunately. In the military and civilian federal sector it is seen as an act of “compassion” to let people make it to retirement.
There is no similar compassion for the private sector that must labor to pay for it all. On top of all that, many of the military buy into the “you’re a hero” crap and think they deserve it all.
I served in the military, and I refuse to let people thank me for my service. I did it out of a sense of duty.
No you don’t. they complain and “say” they are going to leave, but they never do.
Well, I've gotten a few resumes emailed to me, so it's more than "say"...though I admit that's a bit different than signing an acceptance letter.
…It’s too much money at the end, and of course that’s the problem for the folks who must provide their multi-million dollar retirement package, and then try to fund something far more modest for themselves.
These resumes are from people who are a loooooooooong way off from retirement, though. For that part, you are right.
On top of all that, many of the military buy into the “you’re a hero” crap and think they deserve it all.
That does not include me. I just know that I executed my part of the agreement which required no small amount of deferral of gratification. And I demand that the other party keep their part of the agreement.
You can believe that if you will. Most will agree with you, but hardly all.
However, military service does not exempt anyone from changes in their current employment. Civil service is not an extension of military service, and prior service should not be a factor either way. (The veteran’s hiring preference is enough.)
True. And I am not asserting that it should one way or another.
This furlough is a game played by the current administration to get people to rally for continued government growth. The pain is not only real, but it’s intended.
I know, and that's the point.
Once they get enough support, they will get the increases, but don’t expect that the money will be put to back into DoD.
Remember, you are not their target market; you are the target.
I'm not either (other than trying to target my wallet with more taxes). I work in the private sector.
Agreed.
“That does not include me. I just know that I executed my part of the agreement which required no small amount of deferral of gratification. And I demand that the other party keep their part of the agreement. “
There is a very good chance you’ll be disappointed.
You can demand blood from a turnip all you wish.
The America we know will only continue through default (either outright or through inflation) of our debts and living within our means going forward.
Our means do not include multi-million dollar pension plans for government employees. How could it?
“I get a retirement from the military as an E6”
If you look up E6 base pay on the pay chart, it’s a bit above $3600, assuming you get 50% of that after 20 years, that’s $1800 per month, or $21,600. Let’s add on $6k per year (low-ball) for free medical care for life.
That is $27,600. Now how much money would one have to have to generate that level of income?
Well the 10 year treasury rate is 2.54% so dividing $27600 by 2.54%.....
Congratulations, you’re a millionaire. $1,087,000
Now, let’s take the average taxpayer, who labors for 20 years - they may even have to spend time in dangerous places away from family.
He doesn’t get a million-dollar pension payout, but he has to fund other people.
Just thought you’d like to know.
…
The America we know will only continue through default (either outright or through inflation) of our debts and living within our means going forward.
Let me explain to you what I actually expect (which is distinct from what I demand).
Living within our means? That won't happen. Ever. We passed that tipping point long, long ago.
Therefore, I'm not going to voluntarily give mine up (which, whether the USG can afford it or not, I earned), until those lackeys that didn't earn a bit are forced to give theirs up first.
And, all fantasizing aside, you know that the politicians who give people their free (or heavily subsidized) housing, their food stamps / EBT cards, their welfare, their out-of-wedlock parent cash, the Michelle Obama approved arugula school lunches, the subsidized before and after school care, the crony capitalist subsidies to foolish business ventures, etc., aren't going to make those people give up their freebies. You know politicians from either party will, in no way, even dream of asking them to give that up.
Our means do not include multi-million dollar pension plans for government employees. How could it?
This statement is fantasy. If I am asked to give up my military pension or if a civil servant is asked to give up his pension, it's not like it is going to be used constructively. The govies will just see that and say that this is extra money that we can use to buy influence. We can use this to get more people dependent on government handouts. We can use this to pay off our cronies with government grants. "It's more money that we have to do the work of the American people" ((barf))
It isn't going to be saved...it isn't going to pay down the debt...it will be used to further expand the government.
And, seeing the performance of most of the so-called Tea Party congressweenies, electing new faces to Congress (or to the WH) won't change anything. They'll just be seduced like most of the last batch.
It's like I said in the beginning: if you get the government down to Article 1 Section 8 (as amended) size, if you re-do the civil service and acquisition systems so they actually are effective, if after all that...you're unable to pay my retirement, then we can talk. Until that time, there's nothing to talk about.
They can take everything from everyone simply by letting inflation work it’s magic, and then diverting blame.
At some point we will be forced to live within our means - we can do so with a privatized means of production intact (by stopping the spending) which is not likely to happen, or we can just let inflation devastate everything and every one with war and/or social upheaval as you described being a likely result.
One requires political will, the other one a bottomless pit of moral depravity.
The former is sadly missing, and the depths of the latter have not been tested to such an extent ever before.
Nobody is telling you not to take your check. Like you said, with the elegance of a true conservative who gets a check from the government, you won’t give yours up: “...until those lackeys that didn’t earn a bit are forced to give theirs up first. “
From the perspective of the private sector, you are also one of those lackeys of which you speak, but that’s neither here nor there.
Uh, not exactly.
Your calculations don't take into account compound interest.
Your calculations don't take into account that most investments are done by other than the current treasury rate. Most annuities pay between 6.4 and 14% (source: Barrons).
So using an exceptionally conservative value, let's say 6% interest.
Assuming he retired on his 40th birthday and would be dead on his 80th birthday, given a 6% interest rate, he would need to fund that annuity with $389,168.08.
Looking at it simplistically, his employer would need to invest at about $10,500 per year for 20 years (at the same interest rate) in order to have that amount available when he retired from the military. (Obviously, the amount would have to be adjusted based upon his pay, but the point remains)
If this worked like a regular 401k, like most civilians in careers have (or like a fully-funded 401a pension), a deposit would be made each month...and that amount would compound over time.
You say $1,087,000...it's an apples and oranges comparison. It assumes that he would live off the interest and that his heirs would collect the principal upon his death. It doesn't work that way. Unlike a 401k or an annuity, there is no residual value.
And if he is separated prior to 20, he has no vested value to take with him. And if he gets in trouble after 20 -- like committing a felony, he could lose it all...with, again, no vested value.
So to say it's a million dollar retirement is just a canard. A useful figure of speech, but it has no bearing in reality upon examination.
I understand the point.
When they confiscate your 401k and/or IRA...if you have a fully-funded pension scheme from your employer (yes, I know that is exceedingly rare anymore), or if they come for your gold, like FDR did back in the 30s...and tell you that you will get a "national pension" in its stead, you will scream bloody murder...or at least I'd wager you would. I know I will.
I see this as no different.
And, yes, I realize we're not going to agree.
Most of this is just politics. Proper cuts (which are not really cuts) can be made without hurting the necessary functions of government.
This caught my eye: “Maybe I’ll go back to school and get my masters in something.”
“My masters in something . . .” That sounds just like a government plan. “My masters”??? Just like it is an entitlement just waiting for him to go out and claim it. I have no idea who this guy is or how effective he might be, but this single, ridiculous statement makes me think he may be a slug . . . .
“. . . in something . . .” Something???? What a joke.
I spent plenty of time in military service. I know that in my time there were many DoD civilians who were effective and dedicated. I also had to deal with more than a few slugs who were just leaving a trail of slim. Yet the slugs could not be removed. They were virtually immune to firing. What was galling, often the slugs had to be appeased, humored, obeyed and praised in order to get something done, not because of their effectiveness, but because of their ability to gum up the works.
To simply furlough a slug for a day a week is a huge improvement over what I saw in my military career. If the non-slugs also suffer . . . well then they may be slower to hire slugs, and may be quicker to push for changes in the so-called civil service laws and rules which will make it easy to get rid of slugs.
“Most annuities pay between 6.4 and 14% (source: Barrons). “
Um, no, not in this decade.
From your article: “Of the highest five-year guaranteed rates on fixed annuities, the top six contracts are offered by private-equity firms, with rates as high as 2.7%.”
“So using an exceptionally conservative value, let’s say 6% interest. “
6% is an exceptionally high value, not an exceptionally conservative value.
“So to say it’s a million dollar retirement is just a canard. A useful figure of speech, but it has no bearing in reality upon examination.”
No it’s not entirely a canard, especially with a 40+ year retirement.
One thing I discounted is the future costs of healthcare, and the actual cost of health insurance - that more than offsets that.
I also did not include COLA’s which would further increase the present value of and E6 retirement plan.
No, the good man is a millionaire, there is no way to get around it.
He may lack the tophat and cane, but the numbers don’t lie, even with approximations to add and subtract.
“When they confiscate your 401k and/or IRA......you will scream bloody murder...or at least I’d wager you would. I know I will. “
They won’t confiscate them, at least I doubt it. The government would not survive this. There is an easier way if you are a morally depraved government:
Simply print money equal (or double!) to the assets in the 401k/IRA’s they accomplish the same thing, and then they can blame “external forces”, politics, greedy business, or any number of things for the collapse in the dollar. Switch over to a new currency.....done!
Now figure our what that is from 17 years ago
Your calculations are off, and you are FOS on pretty much everything you've thrown up there.
Free medical care? who gets that other than congress, not retirees.
If you would actually investigate other than what comes out of your infantile mind you would know, but expecting someone who obviously has no clue about the military, one expects misdirection.
He doesn’t get a million-dollar pension payout, but he has to fund other people.
You just went from stupid to moron.
And you think that my pension isn't taxed?
“Your calculations are off, and you are FOS on pretty much everything you’ve thrown up there.”
I don’t think so, Thurston.
You are using equipment your obviously not trained with.
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