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10 Points to Consider in the Great Natural Gas Vehicle Debate
Fuel Fix ^ | July 12, 2013 | Matt Smith

Posted on 07/12/2013 6:17:38 AM PDT by thackney

The perception of natural gas as a mainstream fuel for vehicles runs the gamut, dependent upon where you live: from the improbable…to the viable…to the everyday reality. So from recent burrito research expeditions, here are ten points to stir up the melding pot of the great natural gas vehicle debate.

1) Here is a breakdown of the total number of natural gas vehicles globally. The key takeaways: there are A LOT of natural gas vehicles already in the world (15 millionish in 2011) and the number is rapidly increasing. However, there are relatively few in North America (aka, the tiny sliver at the bottom of the chart).

2) In a recent IEA report, natural gas use in road transport accounted for 1.4% of global gas demand in 2012. This is projected to rise to 2.5% by 2018, accounting for nearly 10% of total natural gas demand growth.

3) The number of natural gas vehicles (NGVs) in the world could reach 65 million by 2020, according to the International Association of Natural Gas Vehicles (IANGV), which indicates an annual growth rate of 19%. Another study by Navigant Consulting puts this number at a much more modest (but still impressive) 35 million.

4) China is leading the charge in both total natural gas demand growth (accounting for 30% of global growth over the next five years) and natural gas demand growth for transportation, with consumption from the sector set to triple by 2018.

5) China already has 1.5 million natural gas vehicles on the road, and if its ambitious targets are achieved, it will be substituting 840,000 barrels of oil by 2030. That said, for this to occur it would need to see a tenfold increase in consumption from the vehicle sector.

6) The current leaders in terms of natural gas vehicles are Iran (2.86 million), Pakistan (2.85 million), Argentina (1.9 million), and Brazil (1.7 million). These four account for 60% of the total global count.

7) The number of natural gas vehicles in the US is now estimated at 250,000. According to the EIA, April’s natural gas vehicle fuel consumption was 2.7 Bcf for the entire month. This equates to 0.1% of total US consumption.

8) The US is seeing the most growth coming through from transit vehicles, with one in five now running on natural gas (although according to Twitter it is now one in three). There has been a flurry of companies such as Frito-Lay and Proctor & Gamble announcing recently that they are converting parts of their fleets to run on natural gas.

9) But just as studies on LNG exports have indicated that natural gas prices will be relatively unaffected, natural gas prices are projected to see a limited impact by rising demand from the transportation sector. All the while, by 2035 we should still see 99% of US vehicles powered by fossil fuels.

10) Finally, given the optimistic numbers presented above (well, I’m more bullish on NGVs than when I started this piece!), it seems prudent to highlight the harshest reality faced, at least by the US: that of infrastructure. According to the IEA, it can cost from $400,000 to $1.7 million to build a compressed-natural-gas filling station, and up to $4 million for a liquefied-natural-gas station. By comparison, a gasoline station costs from $50,000 to $150,000.

‘Til next time…thanks for playing!


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: cng; energy; lng; naturalgas
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To: chrisser

Propane would not be much dollar savings.

Propane contains 92,500 BTUs per gallon.
Gasoline contains 125,000 BTUs per gallon.

So Propane at $2.59 per gallon delivers energy at the same price as gasoline at $3.50 per gallon.


21 posted on 07/12/2013 7:20:58 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

Well then, there you go.


22 posted on 07/12/2013 7:22:09 AM PDT by Noamie
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

“If natural gas is cheap, viable energy alternative the misanthropic eco-nuts will find a way to stop it through a little “scientific” sleight-of-hand.”


DONE! They found a way to kill it.

I have investigated, numerous times, converting my vehicles to dual fuel (which makes the most sense until most gas stations have NG pumps) but if you look at how the EPA has deliberately made certifying such systems almost impossible you realize the EPA is working against us.

Every engine AND model combination must go through 10s of thousands of miles (100s of thousands for certain tests) of testing regardless of the fact it is the same engine but just in a different body.

If you are fortunate enough to have an engine/body style that the EPA has reluctantly certified then there are kits available for gasoline/NG dual fuel use.

The EPA does not want an alternative to oil that still produces some about of pollution even it is vastly superior pollution wise.

We have all the proof we need to know the EPA is an economic terrorist organization working against all of us by simply looking at what they are doing with the VW diesel engine manufactured in the USA but rendered, by the EPA, illegal to be sold in the USA. This engine, in Europe gets 70+ MPG.

The EPA using the greatest dishonest tool used by every lawyer, a half truth, prevents this engine being sold in the USA. The engine DOES produce SLIGHTLY more pollution per gallon HOWEVER, because it gets such great mileage the pollution per mile is much LOWER than any diesel engine in the USA.

The EPA wants to kill the auto industry and bring the USA down as there is not a single lawyer in the world can figure out how to elevate other people so the only solution is to destroy the successful.

The EPA and IRS should be among the first targets for those who want to get this government returned to the restrictions imposed by the Founders.


23 posted on 07/12/2013 7:25:33 AM PDT by Wurlitzer (Nothing says "ignorance" like Islam! 969)
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To: thackney

Those charts clearly point out that natgas vehicles have taken off ONLY in countries where there is government support for the concept. That Figure 12 chart shows that N. America has been flat lined for 20 years. Without federal government support, the VERY EXPENSIVE conversion of vehicles from diesel or gasoline to natgas will continue in the USA v e r y v e r y s l o w l y. We will wind up exporting our tremendous natgas supply to other countries who are wisely making the conversion to cleaner, cheaper fuel while we continue to import expensive foreign oil from countries that hate us.


24 posted on 07/12/2013 7:39:08 AM PDT by shove_it (long ago Orwell and Rand warned us about 0bama's America)
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To: chrisser
But there are two problems... 1) The gas filling station is not open to the public 2) The EPA has made it practically impossible to convert an existing vehicle to natural gas (or propane, for that matter) legally. Conversions have to be “certified” and tested, meaning they are very expensive and only available for a limited number of vehicles. In the current environment, it’s only practical for fleet usage.

Where I live in Pennsylvania that is changing. There are a few small companies that will convert a gasoline only engine to dual use for about $4,000. The vehicle will switch from one to another automatically and is EPA OK. A company called Sheetz has many filling stations throughout the region and they are in the process of adding CNG to their choice of fuels. Not a big jump, since they also sell propane gas for grills and such.

25 posted on 07/12/2013 7:51:25 AM PDT by jdsteel (Give me freedom, not more government.)
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To: Wurlitzer
Recently converted my emergency gasoline generator to tri-fuel, gas/NG/propane. It works, but I haven't needed to use it since the conversion. I did this NOT because of the cost of fuels, but the two extended and wide-spread outages in my area...6/12 derricho and Sandy. A gasoline generator is useless if you can't get gasoline. We do not have utility gas mains where I live so I use propane for heat/hot water/cooking...and next time, that 500gal propane tank in my yard will also supply electricity. (can also use 20/40 gal portable propane tanks)
26 posted on 07/12/2013 7:54:34 AM PDT by Roccus
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To: jdsteel

Any talk of required road taxes need to be paid?

Some folks that went to their own bio-diesel have been burned this way before.


27 posted on 07/12/2013 7:56:48 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Roccus

Did you do this conversion yourself? Was it a kit you bought? Any info would be appreciated.

After Hurricane Ike outside of Houston we went 5 days without power. By the 4th day, it was getting real tough to get gasoline.


28 posted on 07/12/2013 7:58:18 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: shove_it

“WPRT has been a range bound trade for a couple years now.”

That is a pretty big range, @22-52 in the past year.


29 posted on 07/12/2013 8:05:03 AM PDT by Triple (Socialism denies people the right to the fruits of their labor, and is as abhorrent as slavery)
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To: thackney

I may have ‘free gas’ on the farm soon when they finally get to my area to frack (within 2 years). It would be nice to be able to fill up a vehicle to zip around the farm. Anything over my free allocation is still very cheap since the price is at the well head. I might consider getting a car/truck and filling it at the farm. I wonder if that is possible.


30 posted on 07/12/2013 8:15:50 AM PDT by RadiationRomeo (Step into my mind and glimpse the madness that is me)
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To: thackney

Did it myself with a kit. You can get a lot of info by rooting around their site. Should you call, the people there are VERY helpfull

http://www.propane-generators.com/


31 posted on 07/12/2013 8:16:47 AM PDT by Roccus
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To: Roccus

Thanks


32 posted on 07/12/2013 8:21:38 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: RadiationRomeo

Do your homework first before spending money to set up a filling connection.

Wellhead gas can be a very different quality and composition than the pipeline quality gas that is sold to residences and businesses. There is a reason all those gas processing plants get built.

It might be fine as is. You might destroy an engine. You might do worse.


33 posted on 07/12/2013 8:24:19 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

Like I said earlier, “it works.” HOWEVER, I haven’t needed to use it for any length of time yet as was the case last year.
Just a thought, since I won’t have to worry about re-fueling the gen, I’m gonna need some sort of reminder to shut down and change oil at the recommended intervals.


34 posted on 07/12/2013 8:28:15 AM PDT by Roccus
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To: thackney; RadiationRomeo

I have old leases on my ranch that give us free gas for use in heating a rather large chicken-raising outfit.

1. Gas does vary, even from the same well. It also has no smell, except H2S, which, if you smell (rotten eggs), run the f—k away because you are about to die.

2. You will inevitably get liquids and solids in the process. The liquids are things like propane, natural gasoline, etc, and have value, but pretty much just need to be added to the tank battery because you won’t be able to market them, and the oil company can. They also blow up and clog crap up.

3. Recently, at least where our ranch is, the state has all-but outlawed free gas and you have to meter it and pay severance taxes on it and a whole host of crap that would make a new installation questionable, at best.

4. I am a fan of liquified natural gas, in general, especially in fleet vehicles. It’s cheaper and you can often dodge upwards of a $1/gallon of tax on it. We use it in certain of our big rigs (I own a drilling company and service company). They pretty much drive in a loop and come back to the yard to be re-filled. This works very well and when diesel was so high, I was saving $2,50/g — and now it’s $1.50, but still worth it.

For an individual vehicle? Probably not.


35 posted on 07/12/2013 8:32:34 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (RINOS like Romney, McCain, Dole are sure losers. No more!)
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To: TheThirdRuffian

You can smell H2S up to a point, then you lose the ability to detect it. Tough on any carbon steel piping system as well.

http://www.safetydirectory.com/hazardous_substances/hydrogen_sulfide/fact_sheet.htm

Hydrogen sulfide has a very low odor threshold, with its smell being easily perceptible at concentrations well below 1 part per million (ppm) in air. The odor increases as the gas becomes more concentrated, with the strong rotten egg smell recognisable up to 30 ppm. Above this level, the gas is reported to have a sickeningly sweet odor up to around 100 ppm. However, at concentrations above 100 ppm, a person’s ability to detect the gas is affected by rapid temporary paralysis of the olfactory nerves in the nose, leading to a loss of the sense of smell. This means that the gas can be present at dangerously high concentrations, with no perceivable odor.


36 posted on 07/12/2013 8:44:24 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

You folks are good(informed). What about the gas that comes to our homes? Can’t that be a source?


37 posted on 07/12/2013 8:48:15 AM PDT by DIRTYSECRET (urope. Why do they put up with this.)
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To: DIRTYSECRET; thackney

No, there are scrubbers to take H2S out before it gets to the end-use pipeline, plus an additional chemical to give (gas you use) a smell that you recognize.

Frequently you will see big piles of yellow stuff next to a processor. That’s the sulfer by-product

Aside from the safety factor, they also take H2S out because it causes what is called “embrittlement” to the pipes. To over-simplify, hyrdogen atoms break off and float into the steel and make it more like cast iron — brittle, instead of bendy.

I deal with this in drill pipe, and it is why you often see pipe that looks good sitting out in the baking Sun for a couple months -— the heat and light bakes out the H+ and the pipes go back to normal.

You could end up dealing with this on internal pipeing, which makes for fragile connections.

Thackney is very correct re: H2S smell. We have monitors and breathers in the chicken coops for this reason. Buzzer goes off — RUN.

Never happened yet, and won’t, God willing.

I have, however, been on a drilling site where a guy falls down in the cellar (the underground part of a well being drilled) -— he’s dead from H2S. Good buddy goes to help -— and he dies.

My one and only brush with the legal system was testifying in this case about how they all violated their training about masks, alarms, etc.


38 posted on 07/12/2013 8:56:57 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (RINOS like Romney, McCain, Dole are sure losers. No more!)
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To: thackney

“According to the IEA, it can cost from $400,000 to $1.7 million to build a compressed-natural-gas filling station, and up to $4 million for a liquefied-natural-gas station. By comparison, a gasoline station costs from $50,000 to $150,000.”

sounds like an opportunity

someone can do, or pay for, the R&D to bring down the cost of installing what’s needed at fueling stations outfitted to supply natural gas for transportation

as for locations, I’d know where I’d start (not sayin)


39 posted on 07/12/2013 9:05:07 AM PDT by Wuli (qu)
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To: Wuli

There are some really good outfits that have lowered that price dramatically in the Midland/Odessa area.


40 posted on 07/12/2013 9:07:30 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (RINOS like Romney, McCain, Dole are sure losers. No more!)
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