Oh come off it!
Europe may be the dying continent, but the Reformation had nothing to do with it.
Posted on 03/15/2013 7:32:44 AM PDT by Kaslin
"The Faith is Europe. And Europe is the Faith," wrote Hilaire Belloc after that bloodbath we call World War I. "Either Europe will return to the Faith or she will perish."
By 1938, Belloc concluded Christian Europe was done:
"The bad work begun at the Reformation is bearing its final fruit in the dissolution of our ancient doctrines -- the very structure of society is dissolving." He was right. Europe is the dying continent.
And looking back at the history of the Old Continent, we see the truth of G.K. Chesterton's insight: When men cease to believe in God, they do not then believe in nothing, they will believe in anything.
Consider the idols to which European Man has burnt incense since losing his faith: Darwinism, Marxism, Bolshevism, fascism, Nazism, now globalism -- the idea of a secular paradise where mankind's needs are met by the state and people spend their lives consuming cultural and material goods until the time comes for the painless exit.
Wednesday, even as Europe has said goodbye to Rome, Rome began to say goodbye to Europe, where the fastest growing faith is manifest in the mosques rising from Moscow to Madrid.
The College of Cardinals, for the first time ever, chose a pope from the New World: Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio of Argentina.
To be exact, Pope Francis is not of the indigenous peoples of the New World. His father was an immigrant from Italy who came to Argentina before he was born. Yet, though by blood an Italian, Pope Francis, heart and soul, does not belong to Europe.
The reaction of our secular media to the election of this first Jesuit pope, who lives his "preferential option for the poor," was easily predictable.
On redistribution -- "Is he a conservative, or a Great Society liberal who will push the 'social gospel'?" -- the new pope passes with honors. He has a simple apartment, rides the bus and lives among the Buenos Aires poor.
But on the "social issues" -- "Is Pope Francis a progressive who will move the Church to a more 'tolerant' view of abortion and same-sex marriage?" -- the disappointment of the media elite was evident.
Pope Francis adheres to orthodox Catholic teaching that abortion is the killing of an unborn child entailing automatic excommunication for all involved. He has denounced same-sex marriage and regards homosexual adoptions as a crime against children.
That the media showed visible disappointment at learning this makes one wonder if they know anything at all about the Catholic Church.
To be Catholic is to be orthodox.
Indeed, let us presume the impossible -- that the Church should suddenly allow the ordination of woman, and decree that abortions in the first month of pregnancy are now licit, and that homosexual unions, if for life, will henceforth be recognized and blessed.
This would require the Church to admit that for 2,000 years it had been in error on matters of faith and morals, and hence is not infallible. But if the Church could have been so wrong for so long, while the world was right, and many had suffered for centuries because the Church erred, what argument would be left for remaining Catholic?
If the Church were to admit it had been wrong since the time of Christ about how men must live their lives to attain eternal life, why should Catholics obey the commandments of such a fallible and erring Church? Why not follow our separated brethren of the Protestant faiths, and choose what doctrines we wish to believe and what commandments we wish to obey?
And how have those churches fared that have accommodated themselves to the world?
Of the Christian denominations, the closest to Catholicism has been the Anglican or Episcopal Church. For a time, Anglicans were not regarded as heretics. For though they had rejected the primacy of Rome, they had not rejected the truths fundamental to Catholicism. They had been seen in the time of Henry VIII as schismatics.
But lately the Episcopal Church has been in the vanguard of all Christian churches in ordaining women priests and consecrating women and homosexuals as bishops.
Result? No church has suffered greater losses, as Catholicism has benefited from a steady stream of defecting Anglican clergy.
What the secular media reaction to Pope Francis reveals is that traditional Catholicism is today almost as deeply alien to our present-day West as it was in Roman times, only the West chooses to ignore Catholicism, where Rome feared and persecuted it.
One hears that President Obama will send to the official installation of the Holy Father to represent America our ranking Catholic officeholders, Vice President Joe Biden, along with former Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
One wonders what His Holiness will be thinking as he greets these ornaments of American Catholicism, both of whom regard Roe v. Wade, which has resulted in 53 million abortion deaths, as a milestone of progress for women's rights and homosexual marriage as the civil rights cause of the 21st century.
That says that scripture is adequate.
Timothy is also exhorted to ‘pass on the traditions that have handed down to you’.
Do you believe that Timothy was taught by a written NT?
*rme*
You really don't understand Catholicism very well if you think it means being faithful to a Pope who preaches heresy.
A Pope who attempts to formally impose an heretical opinion like that would cease to be the Pope, and a substantial number of the Catholic faithful would recognize that and probably move to elect a real Pope.
The Greek explained what it said.
Like I said, JC, I’m not going to debate you. Have a blessed afternoon.
And both of those Greek adjectives modify "man of God," not "scriptures". The preceding verse makes it clear that Paul had in mind the Tanakh, since those are the only Scriptures Timothy could have known since his infancy.
If a tradition contradicts SCripture it is not to be adhered to. It doesn’t work the other way around.
Nonsense. If that were possible, it would have happened in 1968.
Let me lay the groundwork. First, in 1930, the Lambeth Conference (Anglican) became the first Christian church in the world to break with a 20 century consensus, and endorse contracepted sex acts. Then, a generation later, by 1968, all the elites -- religious, academic, government, medical, cultural, everyone --- including many Catholic bishops and cardinals --- had OK'd this form of unnatural sex as well. Hell, the majority of the Papally-appointed study commission - had endorsed birth control.
It's hard at this point, 45 years later, to remember the name of anybody, anybody at all who was against unnatural contracepted sex by 1968. It was taken to be as harmless as penicillin, soap and sliced bread.
It was then that Pope Paul VI published Humanae Vitae, reiterating the ages-old Bible-consistent stand in defense of natural, procreative sex. Nobody else then, and almost nobody now, is prepared to defend God's design for sex as natural, marital and as procreative.
It as then that the banners should have blazoned against the sky these noble words: "Habemus Papam."
You say "The idea that the Holy Spirit would never let that happen is pure superstition."
Really? Re-read the above. I've got proof.
"And if a future Pope embraces, say, Homosexual marriage what can the faithful do but accept and embrace it too."
There’s a word for this that has 8 letters and sounds like a fresh steaming ready-made organic fertilizer product, but it’s a word I don’t want to use on Free Republic.
That's give-or-take a few: these timelines are apaproximate.
So all of the Canonical NT books after 2 Timothy--- were they extraneous? --- since, as you interpret it, the existent canon of Scripture at that time, was "complete" and "finished"?
And how is it that Peter and Paul both instructed the Churches to imitate them (their actions) and to hold onto what they taught (their words), both as preached (spoken tradition )and as written (books, letters and sermons)?
Are you suggesting it should be easy to repent of open, grave and oft-repeated sin?
Not easy, but a person can come to repentance.
Oh come off it!
Europe may be the dying continent, but the Reformation had nothing to do with it.
I'd say it started with the French Revolution and the Paris Commune.
Indeed.
What you say is true-—NT canon wasn’t complete at that time. But remember, they were writing for posterity, and inspired by God. He knew what the final result would be.
You make a good point: that Paul's letters to Timothy were written to be true also in the light of the future, because God sees the future. True.
But you've proved perhaps rather more than you wanted to prove...
... because you've got the Holy Spirit and Paul accepting the whole Bible! which would mean the whole Septuagint as was current in the first-century AD. The LXX was the translation and OT canon used by the Jewish communities of the Mediterranean basin, even in Galilee, and including Paul's communities.
You do know that 75 - 80% of the time when the NT writers quote the OT, they are quoting the Septuagint translation verbatim.
Obviously, somebody's got to discern, decide, acknolwedge and/or confirm the canon, because without an orthodox canon you don't know what the Bible is.
So, since I do think God knows the result, I think that makes a strong case for the full 73-book Catholic Orthodox Bible, which was the Bible of all Christians --- Catholics, Orthodox, Copts, Ethiopians, even the so-called Nestorians --- until the 16th century.
Not blaming you, but at other times on this forum I have asked just who it was who decided to de-canonize 7 books of the canon (seriously, I was looking for names). Nobody could give me even a wiki cut-and-paste.
So, carry on! And a good night to you, friend. ZZZZZZ. ;o)
Good night to you, too, and God bless.
But I was the one who DIDN’T want to get into it, remember?
I answered your question. But I won’t be dragged into the Protestant/Catholic debate threads.
We have our convictions, and neither will likely change the other’s mind. We’ll be able to talk it over in Heaven one day, but it won’t matter then.
In friendship,
CoA
I wish Pope Francis could spend 5 minutes with Pelosi and Biden. I’ll bet both would be looking for other denominations quickly:-)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.