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To: Salamander

I don’t know what “flanking” is, but I assume it is part of Guard Dog training.

I obedience train with the Koehler method. I don’t know of a single dog over my twenty years of training that has had cervical damage. Prong collars do not harm dogs. I have heard that the Halti Leads cause cervical spine damage.

“Upwards of 80% of dogs x-rayed have cervical damge from improper training.”

One, why were they x-rayed in the first place? Two, what do you think happens when you x-ray the human spine — abnormalities are found. Without symptoms that is meaningless. Three, where is your proof of cause and effect - cervical damage is caused by improper training.

You may call it cruel but that is a conclusion I disagree with. What is cruel is an untrained dog that results in filled shelters and dead dogs. The Koehler method works. It allows a dog more freedom since the result is a reliable dog off leash.


82 posted on 11/22/2012 6:21:25 PM PST by dervish (either the vote was corrupt or the electorate is)
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To: dervish

Google is your friend.

http://dogmatters.webs.com/pullingonleaddamage.htm

http://www.dogbreedz.com/dog_articles/dogarticle/dog_neck_spine.htm

http://www.petroglyphsnm.org/covers/collars.html

http://www.labadoption.org/wp-content/uploads/Collars_and_Injuries_2007.pdf

http://www.bakersfieldcalifornian.com/columnists/sherry-davis/x59955535/SHERRY-DAVIS-The-best-collars-for-your-dog

http://peterdobias.com/community/2011/07/dog-collars-can-cause-disease-and-possibly-lead-to-cancer/

http://www.weenieinthewindow.com/dangerous-dog-collars.php

http://www.vetinfo.com/dog-training-collar.html

http://www.all-creatures.org/aro/nl-19990303-apa.html

Even if you disregard all of the above, I am now living with the results of blithering bimbos jerking my then 6 month old 80 pound pup down the e-vet hallway to the x-ray room, thus damaging his Atlas joint and C3/C4 vertebrae.

For the rest of his life, because they ‘knew better than I’, he will have to undergo periodic readjustments with his physical therapist.

This is not opinion, theory or hearsay.
This is *my* dog, injured by collar abuse and gross stupidity.

I have both Koehler books [the 2nd being “The Koehler Method Of Guard Dog Training”] that were bought way back in the 70’s when I didn’t know any better.

I would positively, absolutely -not- apply his methods to my dogs, now.

Condensed to its purest form, the Koehler method is based largely on the principles of negative reinforcement and punishment.

I don’t think so.

As far as Haltis go, halters are for horses, not dogs.

The musculature in a dog’s neck is nothing like that of a horse.

I see the morons at the pet stores using them in their “obedience classes” and I cringe.

If I get a chance, I’ll take a photo of the ‘sudden direction change’ maneuver that forces the dog to either jump to or have its neck snapped and post it.

That one illustration should give everybody a chance to make up their own mind about Koehler.

I never said one bad thing about prongs/pinches.
I *only* use them in training.

They are far superior and more humane than any other method...and I *never* have to ‘snap’ my dogs, even when I do the ‘sudden direction change’.

Keep in mind you’re talking to somebody who’s rescued dozens of ‘hopeless’ Dobermanns from death rows in shelters and handed them over to happy families, perfectly re-trained/rehabbed to be model citizens.

This ain’t my first rodeo.

You’re welcome to stick with Koehler just as I am free to avoid it like the plague.


95 posted on 11/22/2012 10:19:23 PM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep. Anthony Douglas Williams)
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To: dervish

It took a while to find a PDF file since I don’t feel like resizing endless photos of pages but here is one of *many* examples of the “Koehler method”, in his own, occasionally ALL CAPS words.

[I like to call this one “How To “Humanely” Lynch And Club Your Dog”]


First, the trainer makes certain that the collar and leash are more than adequate for any jerk or strain that the dog’s most frantic actions could cause.

Then he starts to work the dog deliberately and fairly to the point where the dog makes his grab.

Before the teeth have reached their target, the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from the ground.

As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned problems,
the dog is suspended in mid-air.

HOWEVER, TO LET THE BITING DOG RECOVER
HIS FOOTING WHILE HE STILL HAD STRENGTH TO RENEW THE ATTACK WOULD BE A CRUELTY.

The only justifiable course is to hold him suspended until he has neither the strength nor inclination to renew the fight.

When finally it is obvious that he is physically incapable of expressing his resentment and is lowered to the ground, he will probably stagger loop-legged for a few steps, vomit once or twice, and roll over on his side.

The sight of a dog lying, thick-tongued, on his side, is not pleasant, but do not let it alarm you.
I have dealt with hundreds of these 44 protest biters and can say, under oath, that even the ones who would
appear to be lying most supinely on the threshold of death will get up and walk when a new heel command follows a few minutes of breath-catching, much to the embarrassment of the owners whose cries of remorse were intended to follow all the way to the Promised Land.

Again,I can claim under oath that I have never seen a dog which required even the maximum suspension, that was physically affected in such a way that he was unable to continue his training within a few minutes of the
correction.

None have ever been injured physically.

Nearly all have been helped mentally.

And if the dog is too big and formidable for anyone to hang up?
Then the operation must be carefully planned.

This is how the professional trainer migit “convert” such a dog, while protecting his own person from injury or even Permanent disablement.

He would equip himself with a piece of rubber hose about sixteen inches in length and one and a half inches in diameter.

An adequate scrap of used washing machine hose from a repair shop or the dump is as good as a new piece.
Into this hose he would slide an equal length of wooden
dowling, obtainable at most hardware and cabinet shops.

Before working with the formidable dog, he would put this “tranquilizer” into his Pocket or under his belt, in a quick-draw position; or, if he felt the dog was one which would explode immediately, he would hold the hose in the “ready” position behind his own right ear, above the dog’s view but ready for action.

Naturally, to slow the motion of his target, he would have to use a left-handed, close-to-the-collar grip instead of the regular leash hold.

As well as he can with the awkward left-hand grip, the trainer works at the heel exercises until the dog shows the first sign of resentment.

At this moment (not after the situation has developed into a seething, biting, leash-climbing struggle) the trainer’s left hand steers the dog’s attempt to one side as a right-hand, chopping stroke brings the hose across the animal’s muzzle between the eyes and the nose.

If the correction was humane (forceful enough to be effective), the “biting idea” was jarred from the dog’s mind and replaced with the conviction that attack was not worth the numbing and inevitable consequences.

Inevitable and numbing because a competent trainer,
familiar with the problem, would be keenly aware of the cruelties of threatening or under-correcting such a dog.


Now...bear in mind that the above lynching and clubbing were his advice on how to deal with a dog *who snaps at or fiddles with the leash while heeling*, not some insane, vicious, man-attacking beast.

Just _leash biting_.

That is not obscenely barbaric, in your opinion?

When little ‘Halla is having her training sessions, and as most puppies will, bites or carries her leash, do you think I should lynch her ~first~ or simply “tranquilize” her a bit with a club, instead?

Or, should I humanely [and sanely] gently correct her and redirect her behavior towards a more acceptable and positive frame of mind?
[oh, wait...we already did this and seem to have somehow miraculously managed to dispense with the leash-nipping in about 15 minutes, sans clubbing or lynching...never mind]

No dog trainer I personally know still employs his fascist methods and frankly, his name is a dirty word in the Dobermann forums.

Dog training has vastly evolved for the better.

“Fast, brutal and efficient” ~will~ work but creates a dog who obeys out of fear of punishment.

I would much rather have a dog who obeys me out of an overwhelming desire to please me.

*That* will be the dog who leaps to my defense of its own accord and will *never* manifest suppressed fear-rage some day.

Lest you think I’m busting your chops just to be contentious, I am certainly not.

I’m hoping you will reconsider your methods, to the great benefit of the dogs.


103 posted on 11/23/2012 1:39:21 AM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep. Anthony Douglas Williams)
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