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To: YHAOS; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; Whosoever

[ “In the beginning” is a none to subtle hint that perhaps there is no such thing as eternity or infinity ]

True but it generates a question.. The beginning of what?..

1) the earth....
2) the universe..
3) humans....
4) God...
5) a remodeled earth..
6) the devine drama..
7) something we can barely conceive of...
8) Hubris....
9) Wives...
10) Gender..

** seems like to me the only ones concerned about eternity are people that will die.. The bible(and other sacred texts) indicates virtually every human that ever lived will live for eternity somewhere.. Maybe humans lived before but were given a fleshly space suit to exist on this planet.. and will live again somewhere..

You know... after their space suit assumes room temperature.
The divine drama may be legendary lore BUT maybe it’s NOT...
We being spirits sent here to obtain a human experience..


107 posted on 08/19/2012 9:48:47 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe; YHAOS; betty boop; MrB; TXnMA
I agree with YHAOS. "In the beginning" is used twice in the words of God when speaking of the Creation.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. - Genesis 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. - John 1:1-3

That there was a beginning means there is no infinite past.

Cosmic microwave background measures since the 1960's forward agree - space/time is expanding, i.e. there was a beginning of real space and real time.

Or to put it another way, space/time does not pre-exist but is created as the universe expands.

To people who have difficulty with geometric physics, may I suggest that energy/momentum may be seen as comparable to time passing and the same observation applies: there was a real beginning of energy/momentum.

Indeed, Aristotle explained the concept of "time" by simply counting: 1, 2, 3 etc.

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

Both are required for physical causation.

In other words, there can be no physical causation (energy momentum, wave fluctuation, etc.) without real space and real time.

Also, the singularity of big bang cosmology is not nothing:

Mathematically, the dimension of a space is the minimum number of coordinates (axes) necessary to identify a point within the space. A space of zero dimensions is a point; one dimension, a line, two dimensions, a plane; three, a cube, etc. That is the geometry of it. In zero dimensions, the mathematical point is indivisible.

It is not nothing. It is a spatial point. A singularity is not nothing.

In ex nihilo Creation (beginning of space/time) - the dimensions are not merely zero, they are null, dimensions do not exist at all. There is no space and no time. Period.

There is no mathematical point, no volume, no content, no scalar quantities. Ex nihilo doesn’t exist in relationship to anything else; there is no thing.

In an existing physical space, each point (e.g. particle) can be parameterized by a quantity such as mass. The parameter (e.g. a specific quantity within the range of possible quantities) is in effect another descriptor or quasi-dimension that uniquely identifies the point within the space.

Moreover, if the quantity of the parameter changes for a point, then a time dimension is invoked. For example, at one moment the point value is “0” and the next it is “1”.

Wave propagation (e.g. big bang, inflation) cannot occur in null dimensions nor can it occur in zero spatial dimensions, a mathematical point; a dimension of time is required for any fluctuation in a parameter value at a point.

Moreover, wave propagation must also have a spatial/temporal relation from cause point to effect point, i.e. physical causation.

For instance “0” at point nt causes “1” at point n+1t+1 which causes "0" at point n+1t+2 etc..

Obviously, physical wave propagation (e.g. big bang/inflationary model) cannot precede space/time and physical causality.

The wise man asks: Why this instead of nothing at all?

And he realizes that only God, beyond space/time and physical causation, can be the uncaused cause of causation, the first cause, The Creator of the beginning.

Space, time and physical causation are not properties of God the Creator. They are properties of the Creation. Only God is uncaused.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:20

The origin of space, time and physical causation – although striking - are not the only open questions that vex scientists. There is also no explanation for the origin of information (Shannon, successful communication,) inertia, semiosis, autonomy and so on. And yet the universe is logical – if it were not, we could not understand it at all.

Order cannot arise from chaos in an unguided physical system. Period. There are always guides to the system whether one is using chaos theory, self-organizing complexity, cellular automata or whatever to analyze complexification, entropy and order.

God's Name is I AM, YHwH (HE IS), Alpha, Omega, Word.

108 posted on 08/20/2012 6:31:58 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: hosepipe; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; MrB; TXnMA
The beginning of what?..

The “beginning.” The “Big Bang” (inflation) according to the Mullahs of Science (a concept they would have adamantly rejected less than a century ago, when “everything” was in an eternal “steady state”). We have not a clue what came before the “Big Bang,” but “something” must have (surely). It is at this point in their speculations that the Science Mullahs leave the pure rarified atmosphere of the icy confines of Science and descend into the sordid and murky depths of (P)philosophy and (R)religion (absent the consciousness of an abrupt change of venue – apparently).

With respect to “eternity” and “infinity,” I do not understand the point of trying to place a value on things that are, by definition, measureless (I’ve previously noted a mathematical and philosophical exception). The logical impossibility of a literal “eternity” or “infinity” should be obvious (as A-G illustrates in #108).

112 posted on 08/20/2012 10:03:59 AM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
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