You can really trust Hope and Change.
With a bayonet up the rectum and a
hole in the head.
Posted on 05/14/2012 4:53:40 PM PDT by tobyhill
President Obama was the commencement speaker Monday at Barnard College, the women's college in New York.
"While opportunities for women have grown exponentially over the last 30 years, as young people in many ways you have it even tougher than we did. This recession has been more brutal, the job losses steeper," Obama said.
CBS News correspondent Jim Axelrod reports that is why today half of recent college graduates can't find full-time jobs.
Jihan Forbes got good grades and a degree two years ago. The only thing she didn't get was a full-time job.
"They said, 'You get a degree, you'll get a job, you are going to be a step ahead of everybody,' and that really hasn't been the case," Forbes said.
(Excerpt) Read more at cbsnews.com ...
But you suggested in your first post that people with liberal arts degrees were not qualified for anything. No?
You knew that when you posted, I guess to make your point more vividly. But I knew better, for I have seen (and I wish that I had a note of it) a report in which it explicited stated that many Wall Street personnel are liberal arts graduates.
I am not denying that having mathematical credentials helps but that is not the only qualification for work. Other things (such as an analytical mind) come into play.
It is not a vocation...it raises a person up but it trains him/her for nothing.
Liberal Arts as a course of study is powerfully important. But it is a lifetime thing...not a 4 year thing.
It never ends until your give up you love of life.
But it is not a vocation!
Even with the good fields/jobs that are remaining, clueless executives/beancounters are devoting themselves to finding someone in India/China that will do it for pennies on the dollar.
There’s going to be a point where these morons find that there are not enough people left earning a good enough wage to do business with them at the prices they desire.
But alas, I had to go out and earn a living in the world so after my hitch in the military, it was off to Technical school where I majored in the unromantic arts of basic electronics and computer languages. Didn't work out so badly for me as I've never been unemployed and do quite well.
People that get liberal arts degrees and then expect to go out and make a living with it are often bitterly disappointed or if they are fortunate, they become marginally frustrated high school English and History teachers.
When I was coming up through high school in the late 1970s, a popular college major among my classmates for some reason was "Phys Ed". I wonder how that turned out for them.
You can really trust Hope and Change.
With a bayonet up the rectum and a
hole in the head.
My son will graduate in June with a degree in Bimedical Engineering. He already has 2 patents and alreay has a job with a start-up:
$75K and a stock grant of 1% of the company.
He’s on his way.
Shreik Ha ha ha ha ha.
You do know that there is a difference between higher education and vocational training, I presume?
Notwithstanding that, I wish to point to the 1971 Supreme Court decision, Griggs v. Duke Power. The Court decided in the favor of Griggs and his associates, all black men who were not able to take written tests well enough to advance in the company. The Court also held that written tests to get and advance in a job (IQ, aptitude, and the like) were banned. As a consequence, companies sought out a proxy and found it in the time-honored sheepskin.
This is what accounts for the explosion in people seeking bachelors degrees.
And spare me the crap about the liberal arts degree having no value. As I tried to point out above, companies accept that attainment of a college degree—no matter the major—indicates two things: the graduate has a certain degree of intelligence (remember: they cannot test for intelligence) and has displayed a certain degree of diligence.
Companies will hire people and teach them what they want them to know to carry out their job (think RoosterRedux and his comment about Wall Street analysts).
In addition to teaching one how to think analytically, how to read comprehensively, and how to write well, college education conveys upon students a certain “polish” (if you will) that serves them well in interactions with other professionals.
To return to the first sentence, it would be best to do away with college degrees in the sciences and set up institutes such as one for engineering (a favorite of Freepers, it seems). We already have an institute for doctors and one for dentists. Get rid of those pesky courses in history, art, and the others which get in the way of learning a PRACTICAL SKILL. It would save money and time.
Would you like that?
Well yes I do. For one, vocational training is usually more conducive to gaining employment than a bachelor's degree in say, liberal arts or "phys ed." As for the higher education required for true professions such as engineering, medicine and law, I consider those more like advanced vocational schools as opposed to colleges and universities.
When I think college or university, I'm thinking liberal indoctrination. I'm thinking Doonesbury or Bluto in Animal House. Four years of mostly getting stoned and wasting your parents money while you try to "find" yourself between the toga parties, the rock concerts and the spring breaks in Tampa.
I respectfully disagree that attainment of a liberal arts degree indicates a intelligence or a measure of diligence. Many come out of those colleges still talking like teenagers and unable to put together even a simple business letter. Of course there are exceptions to the rule. Those who take their studies seriously, even if they were only majoring in philosophy or native American cultures, can be quite intelligent. However, unless they are trust-funded, they will likely spend the rest of their lives riding bicycles, hanging out in trendy coffee shops, wearing Che Guevara T-shirts and working one dead-end job after another.
You seem fixated on the attainment of a job and I certainly would not argue that that is unimportant. But I would rather have an education (in the truest sense of the word) followed by the opportunity for attainment of employment in which the employer teaches me what I need to know.
When I graduated there were many companies whose hiring staff would not even talk to you unless you were a college graduate. That was reality then and I think that’s reality now.
I do agree with you that engineering, medicine, law and a few other professions are really not academic pursuits but advanced vocational schools. I would like to see engineering removed from the umbrella of colleges and universities. It doesn’t belong there.
You must understand that I am 71 years old and in a kind of a time warp because when I was in school (1962-66) we had no liberal indoctrination going on. I never knew the political leanings of my professors, and that’s good.
Since it was Alabama my bet would be that they were conservatives.
As regards college pranks and the like, that did not go on at my school. There were no fraternities or sororities at my school then, nor was there consumption of alcohol (the school was in a dry county). I suppose it would have been Dullsville to the type of student you describe. I never saw them nor was there an Animal House on or near the campus.
And I have seen enough written about the subject to agree with you that many college graduates never attain the ability to express themselves well orally or in the written form. And many never become mature enough to function in a professional atmosphere. They truly are a waste of time and resources.
Identifying the quality students can be a real challenge to employers.
I suppose we agree more than we disagree, SamAdams76.
“Get rid of those pesky courses in history, art, and the others which get in the way of learning a PRACTICAL SKILL. It would save money and time.”
I agree. Of course, you weren’t looking for agreement...
History & art are things you study for FUN. You spend a lifetime doing it FOR FUN.
You do NOT borrow $100K and study it under overpriced professors whose main goal is indoctrinating you with liberal political beliefs.
“But I would rather have an education (in the truest sense of the word) followed by the opportunity for attainment of employment in which the employer teaches me what I need to know.”
If you need to understand math, most employers will NOT want to spend a few years teaching you.
The liberal arts majors I’ve met know nothing of history, language, economics, math, business or life. They have demonstrated an ability to spew BS, not think. Apart from sales, an ability to BS others isn’t useful in most businesses...
While my higher education consisted of mainly military and technical schools, I did pursue a business degree at nights during the 1990s. I ended up not finishing the program but did get to take some non-technical courses like economics, creative writing, and literature. They didn't necessarily help me in my career but I did enjoy taking them.
One should have that education before entering college. As an example, my kids wrote this paper at the ages of 12 & 13.
They can apply to be a Brain Dead democrat Strategist that they Parade out onto the Cable Networks to regurgitate Democrat Talking Bilge.
They can apply to be a Brain Dead democrat Strategist that they Parade out onto the Cable Networks to regurgitate Democrat Talking Bilge.
Not so much to you (I realize you were being extreme to make a point) but rather to those who agree with you: Think through the conclusions of what you're saying, please. Are you seriously arguing that college students shouldn't learn about the history of the Founding Fathers or the importance of the United States Constitution or the role of Judeo-Christian ethics in Western Civilization?
Didn't think so.
What you're really objecting to is not the teaching of history, but rather the teaching of a liberal agenda.
30 posted on Mon May 14 2012 21:12:08 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by SamAdams76: “When I think college or university, I'm thinking liberal indoctrination. I'm thinking Doonesbury or Bluto in Animal House. Four years of mostly getting stoned and wasting your parents money while you try to “find” yourself between the toga parties, the rock concerts and the spring breaks in Tampa. I respectfully disagree that attainment of a liberal arts degree indicates a intelligence or a measure of diligence. Many come out of those colleges still talking like teenagers and unable to put together even a simple business letter. Of course there are exceptions to the rule. Those who take their studies seriously, even if they were only majoring in philosophy or native American cultures, can be quite intelligent. However, unless they are trust-funded, they will likely spend the rest of their lives riding bicycles, hanging out in trendy coffee shops, wearing Che Guevara T-shirts and working one dead-end job after another.”
You will get zero disagreement from me about how bad modern secular universities have become. A school whose academic function is to indoctrinate people into liberalism and whose primary extracurricular activities focus on drinking, drugs, and immoral sexual behavior is flat-out evil.
I would point out that gross immorality runs rampant at many two-year community colleges and vo-tech institutes as well. Put cute future hairdressers in the same classroom for business math or English 101 as hunky future truck drivers, delete a moral foundation, and you're going to have the same sorts of problems you'd find at any liberal arts co-ed college.
I think the real criticism of people here on Free Republic is not against liberal arts, per se, but rather against liberalism.
Take a serious look at places like Hillsdale College, Grove City College, or Wheaton College, which have a reputation for solid academics and are politically fairly conservative, and you'll see something closer to what liberal arts education is supposed to be. Alternatively, if your focus is a specifically religious education, schools which are less strong academically but much stronger morally such as Christendom College, Ave Maria University, or Cedarville University on the Roman Catholic side, or a long list of evangelical Christian schools, have a history of being liberal arts colleges which are anything but liberal in their theology and politics.
I'm not trying to uncritically endorse the named schools. I'm well aware of their problems. My point is that the real objection being stated here is not to liberal arts education but rather to liberalism.
Technically-focused training is fine and entirely appropriate if your goal is to be an engineer or a doctor. It's probably not going to serve you very well if your goal is to be a lawyer or another profession where teaching people how to think critically and to know historical foundations is crucial.
“Are you seriously arguing that college students shouldn’t learn about the history of the Founding Fathers or the importance of the United States Constitution or the role of Judeo-Christian ethics in Western Civilization?”
Yes.
Any citizen should be taught by their parents about US history. Those are also appropriate for high school. But history covers a LOT of ground, and I doubt the history of the Revolution is all that much more important than the history of the Civil War, or how FDR changed America.
Where does one draw the line? Do all college graduates need to know English history, which shaped our own? What about Greek history and philosophy? Should they all be required to read The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire? Should they all be required to read Grant’s Memoirs?
You cannot teach intelligence. Few can teach the wonder of learning. Someone who wants to learn will - but the subject matter will differ.
Why shouldn’t all liberal arts majors be required to study at least a year of biology? Or chemistry? What is wrong with calculus? How well educated is a man who has never studied how the human mind works?
We can ALL make lists of things we think are important, but the lists will be endless. And college would be as well, if we were going to graduate truly well-rounded individuals.
What amazes me is that liberal arts majors think THEIR area of study is critical, yet math & science are not...
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