Shannon -
I will respond even though you won’t reply. I am aware of the positive reinforcement/dominance war, and know you are probably pretty set on positive reinforcement. I’d just ask you keep an open mind, in the event you get a case where PR doesn’t work so well.
First, I don’t choke unconscious or cut off air, that was Pops. Personally, I did’t care for the sound of it when I first read about it, nor would it have worked on the two I wrote about, who almost choked themselves unconscious trying to get at each other - it had no effect.
On the shock collar, prior to these dogs, I never disciplined my dogs. I literally had some dogs who wouldn’t sit, wouldn’t down, and they came when they wanted, and I was happy with that. I was a spoiler, and I didn’t like the thought of making the dogs do anything. I wanted my dogs happy above all else, and thought that was how to do it.
I got one dog, like the two, who had already been trained, and he was perfect, in every way. I suspect it was because I got him as an adult, and the new pack effect made him instinctually submissive, but maybe he was special.
The two I got to replace him after he passed were adorable puppies, but they came to think they did what they wanted, and they were a lot different from my other dogs psychologically, as they matured. For the record, I was irresponsible and ignorant, as many warned of the dangers of their breed, but I had gotten a great one, how bad could they be?
The bottom line was, I tried everything to stop the fighting, and my choice became to go the collar route, or get rid of one, which would have left it traumatized. I did the collar, and I am pretty sure they would have said it was the best option, if they could talk.
Correcting eventually became a once every five or six month thing, and only if a fight was becoming likely. I never saw any effect on temperment or fearfulness, but I was clear when they would get corrected, so they were never confused. They realized quickly, don’t fight and come when called, and there would be no shock. As a result, they would consciously relax to avoid the shock. As a bonus, I got them off leash absent any risk of their bolting - something I never knew was so important to a dog.
Some dogs are instinctually designed to be aggressive, and to become more so as they get aggressive. You need to see it to understand it and you won’t in 99% of dogs. You can’t easily condition your desired behavior into them, more than their genes condition them to try to be pack leader, drive away competition, or just compete to the death to see who is more fit to sire the pack’s next litter. Some things are so ingrained in some dogs that you need some extreme conditioning to make it work.
As an example, you can’t walk between two wolves about to fight over a dead elk, break out a bag of treats and a clicker, and end up with two wolves peacfully sharing the carcass. I know I could get two wolves prone to fight to share a carcass with two shock collars though, based on my experiences.
Likewise, could you condition a grown wolf-dog with PR to reliably hang with a rabbit, and not hurt it, even if the rabbit ran away fast? Some things are deeply ingrained, and if you’re going to put a pathway in the amygdala which will block a behavior, you need it to be a strong one which can shut off the pathway in teh amygdala driving the behavior.
Just to make the point, stop by Amazon, google, or anywhere else, and check the reviews for all of their electric collars, especially the extra strong one I cited. they’re filled with people who had dogs they thought were untrainable, and who now can’t help but rave at how happy their dogs are, off leash, and well-behaved. If this is a bad form of training, shouldn’t most (or even some?) of them be from horrified dog owners, who found the collar irreparably traumatized their dogs?
I know if those collars left my dogs shattered wrecks, I would have complained everywhere, warning everyone. Clearly, those who use them find they aren’t that bad. And yes, I shocked myself with them repeatedly before using them on my dogs. It is painful, but if I could take it willingly for loving my dogs, my dogs could take it to prevent themselves from being hurt in a fight.
I’m only saying this to you, in the event you someday come across a dog you can’t condition with positive reinforcement. Don’t write him off, and don’t avoid the collar to help the dog. There is a whole lot that can be worse than the little transient burn of the collar.
I do know those collars saved two of my dogs, when nothing else would have, and they ended up even happier and more well adjusted than the many dogs I spoiled, but kept on-leash before them. Now, I would make sure any dog I got was trained to come and down with them, and wore them always, just so he could go off leash.
Finally, you are right about how Pops shouldn’t be using the shock collar. I hadn’t seen how the dog had been trained to that point when I recommended it. No wonder he freaks, and begs to be locked up when someone new comes to the house.
For the record, I have no relation to the company which makes them, their sale or marketing, nor do I benefit from any sales in any way. I wasn’t pimping for profit, just pointing out to freepers a product which altered two of my pet’s lives for the better, immeasurably.
Peace.
“Finally, you are right about how Pops shouldn’t be using the shock collar. I hadn’t seen how the dog had been trained to that point when I recommended it. No wonder he freaks, and begs to be locked up when someone new comes to the house.”
Excuse me? What are you saying? My dog was pretty much trained by the book. Should he not have developed a fear of other dogs after he was attacked as a puppy after the dog’s owner assured me their dog wouldn’t hurt mine? I actively worked to correct that issue without success. Fear can be an extremely hard thing to overcome. I’ve done psychiatric nursing so don’t tell me otherwise. I’m not going to get into the socialization issue with people because it would take too long to relate the lengths I went to. I spent hours on the Leerburg.com site when my dog was a puppy and my daughter and I watched “It’s Me or the Dog” nightly. I’ve had many dogs I’ve trained in my life time (I’m over 50), I’ve been to obedience classes and worked one-on-one with a professional before. In college, I was a nanny for a man that had a dog from the New Skete monks and I have read their book, along with several other dog training books from highly respected professionals, not just Joe Blow. Please don’t imply I don’t know how to train a dog. I know what my dog needs, but up until just recently I haven’t had the money, and I’m smart enough to know that I’m not a professional and try it. Slamming me is rich after you publicly admitted to spoiling your own dog and creating a behavioral problem. I didn’t create my dog’s temperament, and after so many years working with newborns, I know they all have a discernible personality at birth. So do dogs. If a dog is born with a timid, fearful personality it is a challenge to overcome and many consider a dog like that to have an unsound temperament. I’ve been at least willing to work with my dog as much as possible. And I’d like to reiterate- the dominant dog caller is NOT for training. It’s solely for getting the upper hand in an emergency situation with a dog’s kill instinct in full blown mode.