Posted on 02/15/2012 6:27:18 AM PST by C19fan
Yup; this is EXACTLY what he has done alright.
The question remains:
Why is he a MORMON?What does MORMONism provide that biblical Christianity doesn't?
Here's something borrowed from Freeper William Clark, illustrating how one can have faith in 'a' Christ but not the true Savior Christ:
"I always like to use the analogy of Jim Caviezel [In Mel Gibson's 'The Passion of The Christ']. Like the Mormon Jesus, he dressed the part, spoke the same words (in the original language, no less), and was referred to as Jesus Christ within a specific context, but it makes all the difference in the world whether one worships and depends upon him for their salvation or the genuine article."
If you need it, we can post a long list of identity items regarding the LDSinc jesus, so you will understand that their jesus is not the same as the Bible jesus, Jeff Head's assertions notwithstanding.
I also earnestly pray, dearest sister in Christ! I'd rather pray than "rebuke."
For one thing, I do not know how to "rebuke" anybody into salvation.
For another, it seems to me that the mere incantation of "correct" Holy Scripture does not do a bit of good for people who do not have the "ears to hear" them. It only reflects a rationalist expectation that salvation comes mainly through "correct" understanding: implying that Truth is accessible by means of mind exclusively.
I am convinced it does not. It comes from a profound change of heart, a change in the very "structure" of the "inner man." A genuine evangelist knows that he cannot get there via reason alone.
I cite as evidence for this claim arguably the two most powerful evangelists of the 20th century: Francis Schaeffer, a Calvinist; and C. S. Lewis, an Anglican. (My suspicion is if these men were Roman Catholics they both would have been beatified by now.)
Arguably both men realized early on that the job of evangelism begins with a challenge to souls regarding their "certainties" about the structure of Reality and their place in it. Certainly it was Schaeffer's method to force people to confront the inadequacy of their own personal cosmologies, to get them to question their own basic presuppositions about the world; and then, when he has left them suspended in doubt about such presuppositions, to know the proper time to "pull the [logical] rug out from under them."
It is only then that a person will "open his ears" to the Word of God. That is the point where the conversion of a soul takes place. Only then can that soul "see" and "hear" Him. It is at this point that Holy Scripture first becomes truly accessible to him, not before. For only in the condition of a soul open to God can the Biblical account — God's Truthful Word — become truly meaningful to the human mind.
C. S. Lewis knew this, too. He was no mere "preacher." His works display the knack for engaging souls in their "naked essence," without explicit reference to Scripture at all. But all his efforts were directed to the Glory of Christ, and to the true salvation of souls.
Ultimately, a Christian life is not about what we know; it's about how we live. And frankly, it takes real courage to be a Christian — and not just these days, for it has always been so. There is no way to be a Christian by "cheap grace": One must STAND in Christ:
STANDChristianity is all about human dignity and liberty. But these values do not come "cheap" in our modern world: They have to be articulated, defended, and quite possibly fought for, should push come to shove. And the person who does so will likely be ridiculed in what has become of the Public Square....
What do you do
When you've done all you can
And it seems like it's never enough?
And what do you say when your friends turn away
And you're all alone?
Tell me, what do you give
When you're given your all and
Seems like you can't make it through?Well, you just STAND
When there's nothing left to do
You just STAND
Watch the LORD see you through
Yes, after you've done all you can
You just STANDTell me, how do you handle
The guilt of your past?
Tell me, how do you deal with the shame?
And how can you smile while your heart has been
broken and filled with pain?
Tell me, what do you give when you've given all
Seems like you can't make it through?
You just STAND
When there's nothing left to do
You just STAND
Watch the LORD see you through
Yes, after you've done all you can
You just STANDYou just STAND and
Be not entangled in that bondage again
You just STAND and endure
GOD has a purpose, yes, GOD HAS A PLAN
Hold on, just be strong - GOD will step in
You just STAND!
For all that my dear friend Jeff Head has caught flack on this thread, HE clearly understands this. And is prepared to "step up" to the challenges that face all Godly people nowadays.
Although I must add that the presentation of Jesus in the eleven principles he most graciously provided for my review is very likely not the same Jesus as the Jesus given to us in the Athanasian Creed. Plus if my reading of Point 2 on the list is correct (and it may not be), it seems that the Church of LDS has effectively abolished the doctrine of Original Sin. In which case, I assume that my dear neighbor Jeff Head has some appreciation of the colossal "stumbling block" this represents to both Orthodox and Reformed Christians.
At this point all I can add is: I pray God's blessings on all participants in this discussion. May the Light and Grace of Christ be with one and all.
Thank you ever so much for writing, dearest Alamo-Girl, my beloved sister in Christ!
Well dear brother in Christ, we humans can "rebuke" all day long — BUT to "command" is utterly beyond human mortal powers. And so if we can't "command," then all we can have left to do is to "pray."
No human "commands" anything in this world, nor the world to come.
JMHO, FWIW.
May God ever bless you, dear brother in Christ! You, and all your dear ones!
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?
Washington's Farewell Address
_________________________________________
Utility of knowing the origin of nations in order to understand their social condition and their laws—America the only country in which the starting-point of a great people has been clearly observable—In what respects all who emigrated to British America were similar—In what they differed—Remark applicable to all Europeans who established themselves on the shores of the New World—Colonization of Virginia—Colonization of New England—Original character of the first inhabitants of New England—their arrival— Their first laws—Their social contract—Penal code borrowed from the Hebrew legislation—Religious fervor—Republican spirit—Intimate union of the spirit of religion with the spirit of liberty.
Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, Vol.1, p.26
http://vftonline.org/VFTINC/history/De_T.htm
Cordially,
I will not vote against Mitt Romney because of his underwear, but I will vote against him.
Each Christian is given a gift of the Spirit - but we do not all have the same gifts. Some are gifted as apostles, others teachers, etc. (I Cor 12) I'm confident that some are gifted as watchmen to cry out "repent" when they see the danger near. (Eze 33) Others are called as sowers of the words of God. (Matt 13)
And some of us till the soil ahead of the evangelist. Some water, some weed, some aerate the soil and so on. But God is the One who gives the increase. (I Cor 3)
I am much more comfortable praying than rebuking. But I do not doubt that some are gifted and called to that task.
The "poison pill" for me with regard to LDS doctrine centers on "Who God IS." The rest is just details.
I cannot endorse or enable the LDS teaching that God the Father had a father who had a father and so on. That would be denying His Name I AM, YHwH (He IS), El Shaddai (God Almighty), Alpha and Omega, The Creator, The Lord, The Almighty.
Thus, if Romney were to become President and seek to lead this nation in the Lord's Prayer - I could not join with him because when said "Our Father" he would be worshiping some "god" I do not know.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. – Isaiah 9:6
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58
As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. – John 18:6
Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:7-8
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: - Col 1:16
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. - Revelation 4:11
To God be the glory, not man, never man.
“Arguably both men realized early on that the job of evangelism begins with a challenge to souls regarding their “certainties” about the structure of Reality and their place in it.”
Spirited: In other words, we must begin at the beginning and address the Ultimate questions: origins, what is man? why evil? and afterlife.
“What is that that hath been? that is now; and that that shall be, hath now been; for God requireth that which is past.” Ecclesiastes 3: 15
Just as all manner of travail (suffering) exists to humble man so too the return of that which has been of old exists to humble philosophers who desire to attain perfection of knowledge. Note that only a living, personal God can require travail and the return of that which has been of old.
When Buddha, Kant, Hegel, and Marx sought perfection of knowledge they did not turn to something that has never been but rather turned back to what has been of old:
1.monism-—the one-substance (the void, abyss, watery chaos, Darwin’s primordial pond scum, dialectical matter)
2.evolution-—metempsychosis, reincarnation
3. some form of Hermeticism, i.e., non-duality, continuity, oneness, connectivity, Hegel’s dialectic.
4. naturally-selected men as gods
Monism, evolution, Hermeticism, naturally-selected men as gods are the foundation stones of the immediate post-flood societies: Sumeria, Assyria, and Babylonia.
From the plains of Shinar these elements eventually traveled
into India and China and all around the world.
Paul contended against permutations of these key elements in his public disputations with Greek nature philosophers.
And we, in these many threads here in FR, are also contending against “what has been of old”-—monism, evolution, Hermeticism, man as god.
There is nothing new under the sun, said Solomon. For what is has already been of old.
I find your categories very interesting indeed as my husband and I have been watching the Babylon 5 television series (a birthday gift). Strangely, the creator of the series (Straczynski) calls himself an atheist and yet "seeking" is the common thread among the characters and plots. Indeed, the very act of seeking is revered in at least one episode.
If you are interested, I see your categories in the series as follows:
2. evolution (metempsychosis, reincarnation) - the theory of evolution is taken as a given throughout the series (no surprise there) and occasionally an alien or a piece of an alien (Vorlons) has the power to inhabit another. Some species achieve a sort of immortality by transferring from one host to another. But they are presented as parasites. And another species (Soul Hunters) make it a point to capture souls at the point of death because they believe otherwise the soul is lost altogether.
3. some form of Hermeticism - the writer gives his nod to this form of religion above all the others with the strongest spiritual leaders (Minbari) believing the universe is alive and evolution is all about its own self-discovery - very much like Eastern mysticism.
4. naturally-selected men as gods - interestingly, this is the area the writer reveals his own stumbling block in his seeking. On the one hand he pokes fun at the Centauri for their polytheism and believing emperors can become gods. But, on the other hand, he makes no joke of the very powerful millions/billions of years old beings (First Ones, Vorlons and Shadows) who reveal themselves to the younger races as "divine beings."
The stumbling block is that he can only imagine a "god" who is subject to space and especially, time. He superimposes his own limitations onto his imaginations.
Truly many people cannot imagine that space and time are part of the Creation and not properties of the Creator of it.
And so, the author's "gods" are simply very powerful beings and no more. They each had beginnings. I see the same "created god" thinking in both modern and ancient religions.
And he nods once to the concept of a Creator when his character Lorean, who is "the" First One says that this universe began with "a" word.
But, of course, all of his gods must be created themselves and so he misses the point entirely that The Word (Jesus) is The Creator-God.
It is refreshing though to see a SciFi series where religious and philosophical belief are given more than a simple hand wave.
As you reminded us, there is nothing new under the sun.
I also am much more comfortable praying than rebuking. And yet Ezekiel was exhorted to warn (rebuke?) men:
Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.IOW, silence isn't "golden" when we have a duty to speak.
When I say unto the wicked, thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou has delivered thy soul. — Ezekiel 3:17–19
Thank you ever so much, dearest sister in Christ, for your outstanding essay/post!
Thank-you for sharing your analysis with me. It’s most interesting.
The ancient Sumerians worshipped the one-substance as Chaos. Presumably, Foundation or Foundational is the name of the one substance with ‘ism’ denoting the whole system of worship, et al.
With monism, all things, including any gods, goddesses and spirits as well as mankind are parts of the one substance. This being the case, man’s soul is not an individual soul but rather a spark or bit of the one-substance. Additionally man’s spark also contains the essence of the gods, goddesses, and spirits. This accounts for the power of the “alien or a piece of an alien (Vorlons)” to inhabit another.
It’s interesting that they are presented as parasites rather than spirits, which seems to indicate a materialist element.
” the universe is alive and evolution is all about its own self-discovery.”
With respect to the one substance, life is said to emerge, evolve, or emmanate out of the substance. In modern versions, especially within occult New Age, evolution and Lucifer are held to be the same thing. Hence it is Lucifer who is emerging out of the one substance.
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.
18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.
22For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.
24This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
Thank you for that beautiful Scripture and for all of your wonderful essay-posts and insights!
Truly I think the writer was trying to take the reader along with him in his mental exercises to explore various beliefs.
Jeepers. Thanks for the ping, dear brother in Christ!
You only got a snippet of D&C 132...
But WAIT!!
There’s MORE!!!
You'd better watch out;
You'd better not cry...
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THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS SECTION 132
51–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
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There is even MORE!!!
58 Now, as touching the law of the apriesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.
59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was aAaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that bsent me, and I have endowed him with the ckeys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit dsin, and I will justify him.
60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have aten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be bglorified.
64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take aHagar to wife.
66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
(I'd sure hate to be a NON-fundamentalist MORMON and run into the Number Two Living Prophet® someday!
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