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To: Para-Ord.45
And what was John Jay's definition of a “Natural Born Citizen” and how did his definition differ with mine?

Natural Born Citizen means Citizen at Birth. Do you have any quotes from John Jay that say otherwise? I sincerely doubt it or you would have posted such by now.

Also, Vattel does not matter at all in this debate. Madison says CLEARLY that citizenship issues had not been defined in detail, by the Constitution.

That Courts could look to Vattel, long ago, prior to Congressional action, prior to the 14th and 15th Amendments, means nothing at all, as a Constitutional matter.

Supreme Court decisions based on Natural Law, Common Law or the Law of Nations or Vattel can be made MOOT by a simple act of Congress, period.

This is how the law works.

Not every Supreme Court decision is based on Constituional Law, SCOTUS can and often does act as the last word on non-Constitutional issues.

Again, in such cases, a simple Act of Congress is all we need to invalidate a prior ruling of SCOTUS.

Congress has acted SEVERAL TIMES, since Vattel’s writings, to further define citizenship -— Just as James Madison desired that Congress act.

97 posted on 02/06/2012 7:36:28 PM PST by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58

“On 25 July 1787, John Jay wrote a letter to George Washington, recommending that the new Constitution should require that the President be a “natural born citizen”. The stated purpose of this requirement for eligibility was to exclude “foreigners” from exercising Presidential powers:

“Permit me to hint whether it would not be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of foreigners into the administration of our national government; and to declare expressly that the command in chief of the American army shall not be given to, nor devolve on any but a natural born citizen.”

Also on 25 July 1787 (the very same day,) James Madison made the following comment to the delegates of the Constitutional Convention then in progress in Philadelphia (the topic of the debate was whether or not it would be a good idea to have Congress , State legislatures, the Governors of the States or courts—Federal or State—choose the President):

Mr. MADISON. ...Besides the general influence of that mode on the independence of the Executive, 1. [4] the election of the Chief Magistrate would agitate & divide the legislature so much that the public interest would materially suffer by it. Public bodies are always apt to be thrown into contentions, but into more violent ones by such occasions than by any others. 2. [5] the candidate would intrigue with the Legislature, would derive his appointment from the predominant faction, and be apt to render his administration subservient to its views. 3. [6] The Ministers of foreign powers would have and [7] make use of, the opportunity to mix their intrigues & influence with the Election. Limited as the powers of the Executive are, it will be an object of great moment with the great rival powers of Europe who have American possessions, to have at the head of our Governmt. a man attached to their respective politics & interests. No pains, nor perhaps expense, will be spared, to gain from the Legislature an appointmt. favorable to their wishes. Germany & Poland are witnesses of this danger. In the former, the election of the Head of the Empire, till it became in a manner hereditary, interested all Europe, and was much influenced by foreign interference. In the latter, altho’ the elective Magistrate has very little real power, his election has at all times produced the most eager interference of forign princes, and has in fact at length slid entirely into foreign hands. The existing authorities in the States are the Legislative, Executive & Judiciary. The appointment of the Natl. Executive by the first, was objectionable in many points of view, some of which had been already mentioned. He would mention one which of itself would decide his opinion. The Legislatures of the States had betrayed a strong propensity to a variety of pernicious measures. One object of the Natl. Legislre. was to controul this propensity. One object of the Natl. Executive, so far as it would have a negative on the laws, was to controul the Natl. Legislature, so far as it might be infected with a similar propensity. Refer the appointmt. of the Natl. Executive to the State Legislatures, and this controuling purpose may be defeated. The Legislatures can & will act with some kind of regular plan, and will promote the appointmt. of a man who will not oppose himself to a favorite object. Should a majority of the Legislatures at the time of election have the same object, or different objects of the same kind, The Natl. Executive would be rendered subservient to them.—An appointment by the State Executives, was liable among other objections to this insuperable one, that being standing bodies, they could & would be courted, and intrigued with by the Candidates, by their partizans, and by the Ministers of foreign powers. The State Judiciarys had not [8] & he presumed wd. not be proposed as a proper source of appointment. The option before us then lay between an appointment by Electors chosen by the people—and an immediate appointment by the people. He thought the former mode free from many of the objections which had been urged agst. it, and greatly preferable to an appointment by the Natl. Legislature. As the electors would be chosen for the occasion, would meet at once, & proceed immediately to an appointment, there would be very little opportunity for cabal, or corruption. As a farther precaution, it might be required that they should meet at some place, distinct from the seat of Govt. and even that no person within a certain distance of the place at the time shd. be eligible. ... “

Madison,also known as Publius from the Alexandria Herald 1811. James McClure is judged by Madison not to be a citizen:

http://api.ning.com/files/ZmEkHEZoQGAdSb5jygta6EtTXhUUWXqhid8nGGduPQrLX3zYLW8kDqbptv7vioB61E17wrsUSh6O9NRTm0tNkqkJhvUkzSBl/alexandriaheraldMcClureinset.jpg

To date I have multiple Founders, common law and 2 USSC cases cited, you have very little.

CASE CLOSED


102 posted on 02/06/2012 7:50:41 PM PST by Para-Ord.45
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