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To: RedRover; Girlene; jazusamo; smoothsailing; bigheadfred; lilycicero; P-Marlowe

1. Staff Sergeant Wuterich was told the buildings were hostile, whether the Major thinks buildings can be hostile or not. In other words, there were hostiles using those buildings. This information is from previous posts, so it is not explicitly stated in this article by Helms.

2. The order was given to clear those buildings. That means only one thing: enter the buildings and eliminate the threat. Since they were receiving fire from the buildings, it makes sense to clear them. Since being shot at is a sign of hostiles, then the building contained hostiles; i.e., “it” was hostile.

3. Urban warfare from room to room (”clear”) does not mean knocking on any door and asking if there are hostiles present. Positive identification cannot possibly mean that. That would be forcing our troops to operate in a manner sure to get them killed.

4. That means in any engagement that our troops are under the provision of the ROEs in effect that they must defend themselves AND attack the enemy.

5. The most important fact is that Wuterich was ordered to “clear south”.

6. The most important puzzle is that we are told Wuterich did not issue one single order the entire day. Does that mean he was simply talking when he allegedly said, “shoot first; ask questions later” or words to that effect??? For all I know he was giving himself a pep talk, just sharing out loud, or going over out loud how to interpret the ROEs.

7. As I understand it, there were different ROEs issued shortly after this period of the war. It would be interesting to contrast those with the Haditha ROE to see how PID is expanded upon in those newer ROEs. That would indicate that PID meant something different at war period 1 and war period 2.


23 posted on 01/16/2012 2:45:02 PM PST by xzins (Romney: Vulture Capitalism is Crony Capitalism on Crack)
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To: xzins; RedRover; Girlene; jazusamo; bigheadfred; lilycicero; P-Marlowe

>>> The most important fact is that Wuterich was ordered to “clear south”.<<<

That’s the way I see it, Chap. The ROE as they existed AT THAT TIME were followed by SSgt Wuterich. “Clear south” was an unambigious order for Marines in Haditha and it satisfied the rule to “contact your next higher commander for decision”.

Rule 1.a. on the CFLCC card(see Nat’s article above) is the key. That and Lt.Kallops testimony:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2832941/posts


24 posted on 01/16/2012 3:22:05 PM PST by smoothsailing
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To: xzins
Excellent, chaplain. And look at the definition of Positive Identification as defined in the card above...

PID is a reasonable certainty that the proposed target is a legitimate military target.

PID as defined at the time of the Haditha incident didn't mean you had to be eyeball-to-eyeball with an attacker to fire your weapon.

As you say, ROE became more constrictive after the Haditha incident and now it's said there are troops in Afghanistan who are basically refusing to even go out on patrol.

25 posted on 01/16/2012 3:26:29 PM PST by RedRover
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To: xzins

Good post, xzins. The ROE were followed and Major Navin’s testimony trying to say they weren’t is bogus.


26 posted on 01/16/2012 3:42:48 PM PST by jazusamo (If you don't like growing older, don't worry. You may not be growing older much longer: T. Sowell)
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