What's Your Kid Getting From College? (Is it worth the tuition?)

Wall Street Journal ^ | 11/02/2011 | William McGurn

[SeekAndFind]

For hard-working American families struggling to make ends meet, the student protesters at Occupy Wall Street must seem like cast members of a reality show designed to make them look shallow and self-indulgent. The irony is that these students and recent grads have a point about their college debt. It's just not the point they are making.

Here, for example, is a typical entry on the blog "We Are the 99 Percent." A woman is holding up a handwritten note that reads: "I am a college graduate. I am also unemployed. I was lead [sic] to believe that college would insure me a job. I now have $40,000 worth of student debt."

The headlines tell us that, as a nation, we now owe more in college loans than we do on our credit cards. Notwithstanding the stock horror stories about the kid who leaves campus owing hundreds of thousands, however, the average college debt load is about the price of a new Toyota Prius—$28,100 for those with a degree from a four-year private school, $22,000 for those from public schools.

Even so, these figures don't touch the most important question: Are students getting fair value in return?

Anne Neal has been trying to help families answer that question for years. As president of the American Council of Trustees and Alumni, she believes students should leave college with a broad base of knowledge that will allow them "to compete successfully in our globalized economy and to make sense of the modern world." By that ACTA means universities should require a core curriculum with substantive courses in composition, literature, American history, economics, math, science and foreign language.

[WhyisaTexasgirlinPA]

I convinced my son to take government on line so he wouldn’t have to face the liberal crap in class. They do online discussions and many of the students are just stupid when it comes to how the world works. One of the first assignments was to decide what kind of world you would be willing to live in: one was full employment, no wars, free education but no voting at all, government rules. The other was not a perfect situation but you had the right to vote for change. My son was one of the few who voted to retain the right to vote. It was pretty scary to see how folks justified being totally controlled by a dictator.

[Agamemnon]

A few, like Hillsdale, still teach Western culture and American foundations.

And they ride the coattails of inflated tuition just like every other school out there but presumably without the obligation to pay fealty to the Dept of Education.

If Hillsdale really wants to lead, they will not only be the best school at what they do but also the best and most cost-effectively priced. Show the world how to do more with less $.

Be an example of thrift in education and deliver the message to the world that no one else gets what they pay for at other institutions of higher learning, but they will get what they pay for -- and more at Hillsdale -- and for ALOT LESS.

And if Hillsdale can brag about their post-college job placement rate in ways other schools can't that would be a sure fire win for conservatism and will contrast the decidedly poor placement rates of the Ivy-League's "tuition tyrants" against that.

But in this realm they don't practice either what they teach or preach, and I have not heard that Hilldale's job placement rates as being any better than any one else's. I'll stand corrected if someone can prove me wrong.

They are just as content to ride the gravy train like everyone else -- only without the encumbering burden of gov't intervention, even to the point of denying tuition enrollment payments sourced by using one's GI bill. My soon-to-be-honorably discharged Marine Corps son has already found that out. He's headed to the University of Connecticut instead.

FReegards!

[RoadTest]

“They are just as content to ride the gravy train like everyone else — only without the encumbering burden of gov’t intervention, even to the point of denying tuition enrollment payments sourced by using one’s GI bill. My soon-to-be-honorably discharged Marine Corps son has already found that out. He’s headed to the University of Connecticut instead.”

How, indeed, could they avoid government control while accepting government (G.I. Bill) money?

Please feel free to send your son anywhere you want.

Can you back up your allegations and inuendos about Hillsdale?

[Charlespg]

http://www.lgbts.umd.edu/
...Gay and lesbian studies

and they wonder why they can't get a job

[the invisib1e hand]

What's Your Kid Getting From College? (Is it worth the tuition?)

An attitude.

And venereal disease.

[Tolaei1]

Unfortunetly it’s not much of an option. For the vast majority of people if you try to go into the workforce for any non-blue collar job without a degree it’s going to be hard to get over $40k in a lot of areas. A degree is flat out an ‘entrance exam’. Not having one is a huge barrier and I’m talking a good BS, not a BA or any Associate’s. It’s miserable out there without one.

[UnwashedPeasant]

Here is the "A List" from http://whatwilltheylearn.com/a-list:

• Baylor University
• California Polytechnic State University - San Luis Obispo
• City University of New York - Brooklyn College
• Gardner-Webb University
• Kennesaw State University
• Morehouse College
• Pepperdine University
• St. John's College (MD)
• St. John's College (NM)
• Texas A&M University - Corpus Christi
• Thomas Aquinas College
• Thomas More College of Liberal Arts
• United States Air Force Academy
• United States Coast Guard Academy
• United States Military Academy
• University of Dallas
• University of Georgia
• University of Science and Arts of Oklahoma
• University of Texas - San Antonio

[SeekAndFind]

1) No IVY LEAGUE SCHOOLS on the ‘A’ List

2) Many IVY LEAGUERS are rated ‘D’

3) Many VERY EXPENSIVE Colleges are rated ‘D’

4) Most of the colleges on the ‘A’ list are relatively less expensive.

5) Herman Cain graduated from an ‘A’ school — Morehouse College. Newt taught at an ‘A’ school — Kennesaw. Obama graduated from a ‘D’ school (Harvard) and went to an ‘F’ school (Occidental).

[TruthConquers]

They truly are the useful idiots,..... but that doesn’t make the students who are loaded down with debt at the beginning of their adults lives consequences any less. Never mind the fact that the economy is tanking. If it weren’t, it wouldn’t be an issue.

But it is. I still remember seeing Freepers encouraging others to load up on student debt because it was leverage, leverage is good! I hope those Freepers didn’t listen to them, the frauds.

And I have seen that it is NOT just the womyns studies or the other useless degrees that are hurting. Even in 2008, only 30% of the graduating class from Purdue found a job. A top university, and only 30%! I have seen those with dual science degrees, can’t find a job.

So, the usual knee jerk brush off here, just ignores the reality that a whole generation is being sold off to slavery, and they can’t give a damn at all.

Amazing.

And it is probably those useless profs that told them to go to Wall Street. The trouble is, with MF Global co-mingling client funds, and the TBTJ banks stuffed with the ponzi of sovereign debt from the PIIGS, this is not over by a long shot.

Historically, a few bad banks do destroy the reputation of the rest. The sooner the frauds are dealt with and allowed to fail, the better. But it seems they have bought themselves the two political parities. It is sheer folly to defend this fraud on the American people.

[TruthConquers]

Are you talking about THIS program:

“The STEM Institute was initiated in 1992 with NASA and CAHSEE support to ensure that Hispanic Americans, female, and other under-represented minority students achieve academic excellence by means of a continuous programmatic support during their pre-college, undergraduate, and graduate years.”

No whites need apply program, ????

[BobL]

“A degree is flat out an ‘entrance exam’. Not having one is a huge barrier and I’m talking a good BS, not a BA or any Associate’s. It’s miserable out there without one.”

That’s TOTALLY TRUE. A degree in English or related says you can read and write decently. I degree in math or science says you can read and do a reasonable level of math. A 2-year degree says that you’re essentially at what used to be considered the level of a high school graduate. A high school diploma, now, means absolutely nothing to employers.

Employers have NOTHING else to go on. They get sued if they try to test applicants...the degree is the test.

So, for parents, try to get junior that degree...or have him go into a field where he can prove himself other ways, like being a licensed plumber or electrician, or ASE-certified mechanic.

But don’t send him into the world thinking that a degree in lesbian studies is worse than no degree at all...employers will simply have no clue as to junior’s capability.

[Agamemnon]

How, indeed, could they avoid government control while accepting government (G.I. Bill) money?

Clearly, you don't understand that the money in the GI Bill has no government strings attached to it dictating which school a discharged Marine may attend and choose to use his post-employment contractual benefit. You do realize that folks who join the Marines sign contracts for an agreed time in service and attendant post-employment benefits, which include continuing education, don't you? (no, I guess not.)

The government cannot prescribe a curriculum for a GI Bill outlay nor can it dictate a thing to the school about to what curriculum it may apply. It is no different than any employee severance benefit one might receive from any private place of employ.

Please feel free to send your son anywhere you want.

He is sending himself. The USMC employed him and the USMC will pay his benefit as contractually obligated to do so for honorably discharged Marines.

Can you back up your allegations and inuendos about Hillsdale?

I let you go to Hilldale's site yourself and do the educational comparison shopping. Since the evidence is right there for you or anyone to read, one may easily determine for themselves that there is little difference in costs charged by Hillsdale than are charged by other schools.

I didn't say the education at Hilldale wasn't good. In fact my son would have gone there if he could have used his post-employment contracted benefit to do so. But he can't so he'll continue the studies he's already started at UCONN.

For how ever good the school may be, what I haven't heard is Hillsdale being able to say on behalf of itself that its historic post-academic job placement success of its graduates is any better than it is at any of its competitors.

Conservatism delivers more for the buck. It's up to Hillsdale to be an example of that by practicing what it preaches, and demonstrating that the value of education obtained there has a dollar value on the outside far and away better than its competitors.

Do the math. If a state school charged $30K and Hillsdale charged $10K, and the placement rate of the State school is 50% and Hillsdale by comaprison was 90%, who would win the academic and philosophical argument about whether throwing money at education delivers a better outcome? I suspect Hillsdale would be enrolling more students and selling more "product" than its competitors, would be bursting with applicants, would have more locations nationwide than does University of Phoenix, and the tide of the whole debate would change overnight.

They are not at this time prepared to lead by example and are at present content to charge what they do presumably without direct government support, but they charge as much as any other government supported institution does, so they are at this point just living off the cream of the built-in education system $ inflation.

No philosophical or moral high ground is being secured there, and the debate about the value of higher education only continues.

FReegards!

[Chode]

Science, Technology, Engineering and Math...

[TruthConquers]

Some answer, eh?

[tiki]

I just looked up my DIL’s school it scored an F and only 17% gradution. She did graduate and she’s doing well but a whole lot of it is her own drive and ambition and also experience because she is older. The woman who graduated at the top of their class actually flunked her national test the first time she took it and my DIL who struggled scored a 93%.

The one my granddaughter is going to next year scores a C so that is much better and is the second best university in our state.

[Chode]

yup, STEM degrees will always have a better chance of getting a job than one in Angry Feminist Transgendered Studies...

[OldPossum]

Employers have NOTHING else to go on. They get sued if they try to test applicants...the degree is the test.

Yes, that is it. They cannot administer IQ tests. If people were aware of this implication of the 1971 Supreme Court decision Griggs v. Duke Power Company, they would understand the craze behind college degrees.

[RoadTest]

“The government cannot prescribe a curriculum for a GI Bill outlay nor can it dictate a thing to the school about to what curriculum it may apply.”

- - - or by-pass Congress or “deem” a healthcare bill passed or apologize for America’s greatness or start class warfare or attack states like Arizona or anything else. Our government’s hands are just tied!

I believe if Government money goes to a school so will government influence. And that’s all I was saying about Hillsdale, and the fact that it teaches solid American values.

As for tuition cost and job placement, I wasn’t talking about those things at all.

[Agamemnon]

- - - or by-pass Congress or “deem” a healthcare bill passed

You are aware that that ultimately did not happen, right, and there would be huge Constitutional problems if they did?

... or apologize for America’s greatness or start class warfare or attack states like Arizona or anything else. Our government’s hands are just tied!

You have a tendency to get sidetracked from the discussion. Apologizing for America's greatness and attacking Arizona have nothing to do with the fact that the government is as bound by contractual obligations as any private citizen is.

Hillsdale may not receive direct gov't support as most other institutions do but that doesn't mean they are not still governed by laws of the US and Michigan. Their freedom is still protected by the US military as is anyone else's.

A scholarship or employee benefit is just that. If Dow Chemical in Midland, Michigan paid the educational support of a student employee of theirs at Hillsdale, Dow Chemical doesn't have any say so as to what the curriculum of Hillsdale is with respect to their employee, although Dow pays for (and deducts such support from its taxable income)an employee benefit. Hilldale will take the money of an employer.

The USMC employed my son. He is entitled to a contractual benefit, and Hilldale refuses to let him use his contracted benefit at their school. It's a simple as that. He will and has taken that benefit elsewhere.

Strangely, one would think that a place like Hilldale who is supposedly supportive of the US military -- at least in their words -- would not be inclined to turn away the educational benefit $ of an honorably discharged, USMC student. He already had a superior GPA from in-service earned college credits, and politically he is as conservative a FReeper as any of us here are. He just happened to place his health and life on the line for the past 4 years on Hillsdale's behalf as much as he did so for the USA generally.

One would think Hilldale would like to make an effort to encourage conservative, honorably discharged US Marines to apply to their school with their post-service employment severance benefit.

But they don't. And that is their right to do, as protected under the Constitution my son swore to uphold and protect with his life. Still, as I said before, for all the platitudes as Imprimus has ever espoused in my own 45 years of reading them, and for all the principles their lecture series' hold forth upon, Hillsdale fails to lead by example, and enriches themselves as does any other $-inflated institution -- with no more $-deliverable to the graduating student than may be obtained anywhere else.

I believe if Government money goes to a school so will government influence. And that’s all I was saying about Hillsdale, and the fact that it teaches solid American values.

My son pays UCONN with greenbacks like he would have paid Hillsdale. You continue to confuse direct government support which does carry gov't influence with a contracted employment benefit, which does not. "Solid American Values" is all just so much verbage if the institution doesn't practice what it preaches.

As for tuition cost and job placement, I wasn’t talking about those things at all.

The thread topic is: "What's Your Kid Getting From College? (Is it worth the tuition?)"

I stayed on topic. By your own admission, you did not, and it appears I have had to devote a significant amount of discussion time trying to bring the discussion back to the topic.

FReegards!

[WorldviewDad]

Unfortunately the same students that you experienced on line will be the same students in the other classes your son takes...or other students just like them. And he will most likely face “the liberal crap” in all of the classes he takes at college...it is kinda built into the college structure.

May he be an example to the other students and hold to a correct worldview.

May I suggest a good book to help your son while in college? I would suggest "The Battle For Truth" by David A. Noebel. It covers several different areas that your son will probably have to deal with in college including theology, philosophy, ethics, biology, psychology, sociology, law, politics, economics, and history.