Posted on 10/11/2011 6:56:32 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan, which the former Godfathers Pizza CEO and current Republican presidential front runner claims will slash taxes and consequently boost the economy, includes some tax increases that may not go over well with many struggling Americans: specifically, sales taxes on both food and clothing.
During an interview with CNN's Candy Crowley on Sunday, Cain said food and clothing would not be exempt from the 9 percent national sales tax he would attempt to enact if elected in 2012. Crowley, who seemed surprised by a potential tax on those basic necessities, pushed Cain to expand on his reasoning.
"So a poor person is paying the same amount of taxes on groceries as I am? Does that sound fair to you, just in a vacuum?" she asked.
Cain responded that "Yes, it does sound fair," claiming the tax would even out since under his policy, those same low-income individuals would not pay taxes "if they need to buy a car or a home or some hard goods that are used."
Cain argues that because the 9-9-9 plan -- which would implement a 9 percent flat-tax on personal income and corporate income, in addition to the national sales tax -- would lower income taxes for many Americans, they will have more money to spend and will be able to afford higher taxes on food and clothing.
However, Michael Linden, the Center for American Progress' Director of Tax and Budget Policy, told Think Progress that because the bottom quintile of earners currently only pay about 2 percent of their income in federal taxes, under Cain's plan they would be paying considerably more. Specifically, he said with the 9 percent tax on every dollar they make, as well as every dollar spent, the poorest Americans would pay a whopping 18 percent of their income in taxes.
Comparatively, Linden said middle-class earners would see their taxes rise from 14 percent to about 18 percent, while the richest one percent of Americans would see their tax rate fall from about 28 percent to 11 percent under the 9-9-9 plan.
"It would be the biggest tax shift from the wealthy to the middle-class in the history of taxation, ever, anywhere, and it would bankrupt the country," Michael Ettlinger, the vice president for economic policy at the Center for American Progress, told The Wall Street Journal.
While Cain has touted his plan as the solution to the nation's economic struggles, Linden's analysis found that, based on 2007 tax data, it would actually result in the largest budget deficits since World War II. If applied that year, the 9-9-9 plan would have yielded just under $1.3 trillion in total federal tax revenue -- 9.2 percent of the GDP -- compared to 18.5 percent of GDP in tax revenue that was actually collected that year.
Cain's plan to tax food is so surprising that even the Tea Party group FreedomWorks assumed certain vital goods, such as food and medicine, would be exempt from the 9 percent national sales tax.
"If you're one of the minority of people -- the top 10% of the population -- who pay 70% of the income tax revenues, you might see the change as a good deal.But if you're lower down the income scale, and especially if you're one of the 50% of Americans who don't pay any income taxes, then you might not see it as such a good trade," FreedomWorks' Web site states in an Oct 6. blog post titled "Herman Cain's "999 Plan": The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.
Thirty-one states as well as Washington, D.C. exempt most groceries from the state sales tax, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. In addition, seven states tax groceries at lower rates than other goods and five states tax food, but offer credits or rebates on some of those taxes for low-income earners. Only two states - Alabama and Mississippi -- currently apply their states full sales tax on grocery items.
I believe the argument is that it is a lot harder to raise rates when it is on everyone vs. the class warfare that has taken place in the current system. “tax the rich”, lower taxes on middle class, etc. Everyone has skin in the game.
I agree it is a fair discussion to have, whether it is fair, flat or any tax change. I think we all agree here at FR the current system is terrible, and horribly corrupted and has been almost since the day 1. I am a proponent of the flat tax because I believe it would be a much more effective system and a much easier transition than replacing with the sales tax, but I am open to either approach.
I think the proposal is to require a 2/3 vote in Congress to change the rate.
RE: The economic ignorance of this article fairly leaps out at you.
We are eager to read your elaboration.
As well you should. The problem is there are too many people out there who aren't.
At last count, something like 50% of Americans pay no income tax. Not only that, but a large number of those who pay no income tax actually get a "refund" in the form of the "Earned Income Tax Credit" or other freebies.
What I don't like about Cain's plan is that, by his own declaration, fully funds government AS IT IS.
That sucks.
To paraphrase that nutbag who ran for Governor of New York last year, the government is too damn big!
I don't want to fund the government at its current level. I want the size and scope of government to decrease.
Cain's tax plan MAY cause that to happen if EVERYBODY feels the pain. Which the sales tax certainly would.
Can someone explain to me how current progressive tax rates of 10, 15, 25, 28, 33, 35 does NOT become 15, 20, 30, 33, 38, 40 in the next congress, or then 20, 25, 35, 38, 43, 45 under the next D admin?
When you can answer that question, then I'll take your question about Cain's plan seriously.
The rates under Cain's plan are no more likely to go up than they are under any other tax plan. In truth, the rates under Cain's plan are less likely to to up because (1) they are are more transpararent, and (2) they affect everyone equally, so you no longer have the class warfare calls to raise taxes on the rich.
Food? Yes. Read the article. Food, yes. Housing, yes. Gasoline, yes. Doctor's visits, yes. Clothing, yes. Transportation, yes. Insurance, yes.
In fact, it's hard to know for sure what the bottom line will be. Cain's website lists zero exemptions to the 9% sales tax. Cain himself seems to exempt items at a whim, depending on who he is talking to. It'd be nice if he would make up his mind.
Strawman argument.
What is to stop them from raising income rates now? Nothing. And they raise them quite often.
Cain’s plan will require 2/3 majority to change. Plus since everyone is paying, with no loopholes, there should be enormous pressure on Congress not to touch those rates.
That MORE limitation that is currently on Congress in regards to taxes.
And how we fire IRS agents? We say, YOU’RE FIRED.
RE: Nobody will be able to explain how you’re going to fire tens of thousands of IRS employees, tax accountants, etc., either.
Maybe we should make the tax code EVEN MORE complicated so that we can keep these people’s jobs and create more jobs for accountants.
For that matter, let’s encourage protestors to smash more windows so that it will create more jobs for window and glass makers.
So what will that do to the new car industry and the housing industry? It'll drive up the value of existing houses and used cars, and drop demand for new cars and new houses. What does that do to Ford and Honda and homebuilders?
RE: And how we fire IRS agents?
We don’t need to fire them all. Immigration has a huge backlog right now. We can move some of them to the immigration department where they can re-use their talents for spotting frauds.
The real reason for the article is eventually put into plain focus. Cain is going to be peppered with the "gotcha" questions tonight and I am looking forward to it. After listening to him for some time during his Boortz fill-ins, I say he is equal to the challenge and could very well "Gingrich" the questions.
I don’t know what you are reading, but none of those things are sales tax deductions under Cain’s plan and he reiterated that in the interview.
Again, this part of Cain’s plan has been hashed out for years by the Fair Tax folks. http://www.fairtax.org
Perfect :-)
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not promoting the current tax system. I'm just saying nobody will have the guts to tell hundreds of thousands of government employees, "You're fired!"
Well, maybe Ronald Reagan.
Even in his current condition, he'd be a better President than Urkel.
First, Cain's website doesn't say that. Second, is that even Constitutional? Currently the Constitution requires super majorities only for vetoes and for amendments. For everything else it requires only a simple majority. I don't think that Congress can just pass a law saying 2/3rds approval is required for some bills and not others.
I'm just keepin' it real. Ain't now way that's going to happen. Unless Ronald Reagan returns from the grave.
Cain's plan is fun to discuss and debate but it ain't going to happen.
That's all I'm saying.
Don't get me wrong, I wish it would. But it won't.
I don’t disagree with you but the point - as I’m sure Cain would argue, perhaps off the record - is that a flat tax SOUNDS ‘fair’ and would draw popular support as a result.
The ignorant haven’t figured out that corporations don’t pay taxes, that banks simply pass on ‘punishment’ to the account holders, and that ‘free’ schools, clothing, food, and health care are not actually free. Call me a pessimist, but I don’t expect them to gain enlightenment on this point either.
Ford and Honda currently pay a 35% federal tax rate. I their federal tax rate went down to 9%, don't you think the competiton between car companies would cause them to lower their prices--lower them enough to cover the additional sales tax, so that the end cost to the buyer (even with the 9% sales tax) is LESS than it currently is?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.