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To: sometime lurker
Nice stretch, lurky. What you're missing is that I've already explained how Vattel mentioned in Law of Nations that the statutory law in England went beyond natural law. Blackstone's descriptions of natural-born as held in English common law are BASED on those legislative extensions, which he points out:
To encourage also foreign commerce, it was enacted by statute 25 Edw. III. st. 2. that all children born abroad, provided both their parents were at the time of the birth in allegiance to the king, and the mother had passed the seas by her husband's consent, might inherit as if born in England: and accordingly it hath been so adjudged in behalf of merchants. But by several more modern statutes these restrictions are still farther taken off: so that all children, born out of the king's ligeance, whose fathers were natural-born subjects, are now natural-born subjects themselves, to all intents and purposes, without any exception; unless their said fathers were attainted, or banished beyond sea, for high treason; or were then in the service of a prince at enmity with Great Britain.

IOW, the universal law of nations that was incorporated into the common law was NOT a limitation on common law. Therefore, it does NOT disagree with Vattel, it simply shows that statutory law was augmented beyond the natural law that formed the foundation of common law.

Further, let's look at how Blackstone defines natural-born in relation to the children of aliens:

The children of aliens, born here in England, are, generally speaking, natural-born subjects, and entitled to all the privileges of such. In which the constitution of France differs from ours; for there, by their jus albinatus, if a child be born of foreign parents, it is an alien.

IOW, Blackstone is clearly saying that this is an exception in England (which obviously goes beyond the natural law). Further, Blackstone says "generally speaking" as in not ALL children of aliens. One of the exceptions is explained in the passage on denizenship:

A denizen is an alien born, but who has obtained ex donatione regis letters patent to make him an English subject: a high and incommunicable branch of the royal prerogative. A denizen is in a kind of middle state between an alien, and natural-born subject, and partakes of both of them. He may take lands by purchase or devise, which an alien may not; but cannot take by inheritance: for his parent, through whom he must claim, being an alien had no inheritable blood, and therefore could convey none to the son. And, upon a like defect of hereditary blood, the issue of a denizen, born before denization, cannot inherit to him; but his issue born after, may.

The "inheritable blood" is what prevents the child of an alien from being a natural-born subject. It only becomes inheritable AFTER an alien goes through denization. Blackstone makes distinctions that are not too dissimilar from what happens in the U.S. when the children of aliens who are naturalized will the become naturalized.

There is also a clear principle explained by Blackstone that was completely rejected in the United States relating to natural-born and common law:

For it is a principle of universal law, that the natural-born subject of one prince cannot by any act of his own, no, not by swearing allegiance to another, put off or discharge his natural allegiance to the former: for this natural allegiance was intrinsic, and primitive, and antecedent to the other; and cannot be devested without the concurrent act of that prince to whom it was first due.

In Wong Kim Ark, they clearly explain what the American position was on putting off "natural allegiance."

by our law, as solemnly declared by Congress, "the right of expatriation is a natural and inherent right of all people," and
any declaration, instruction, opinion, order or direction of any officer of the United States which denies, restricts, impairs or questions the right of expatriation, is declared inconsistent with the fundamental principles of the Republic.

Now, why are we to presume that common law would comprehensively define citizenship in this country when we firmly rejected the CORE principle that was used by Blackstone to define "natural-born"??

620 posted on 10/27/2011 9:04:44 PM PDT by edge919
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To: edge919
You've now managed to completely muddle your point. First you argued that common law equals natural law equals Vattel, then you pointed out Blackstone (who clearly told you what Common Law was with regard to "natural born".) Now you are trying to use Blackstone to contradict what Blackstone has said. Very muddled, and does not support what you are trying to say.

You've managed to misunderstand what you've read:

The children of aliens, born here in England, are, generally speaking, natural-born subjects, and entitled to all the privileges of such.
The exceptions are well known, and have been discussed before: children of ambassadors and foreign ministers, children of occupying armies. As for
A denizen is an alien born, but who has obtained ex donatione regis letters patent to make him an English subject: a high and incommunicable branch of the royal prerogative. A denizen is in a kind of middle state between an alien, and natural-born subject, and partakes of both of them. He may take lands by purchase or devise, which an alien may not; but cannot take by inheritance: for his parent, through whom he must claim, being an alien had no inheritable blood, and therefore could convey none to the son. And, upon a like defect of hereditary blood, the issue of a denizen, born before denization, cannot inherit to him; but his issue born after, may.
Read the first sentence again - a denizen is an alien born (not born in the dominions of of England). He says this specifically "an alien is one who is born out of the king's dominions." So a denizen is an alien who has been (sort of) naturalized; the British version of this at the time was not like American naturalization.

Your discussion of expatriation is another straw man - as if I claimed that all common law was taken unchanged. What is clear is "natural born subject" was stated by many justices, legal scholars, etc. to continue to the colonies, to the Constitution, and down to the current day as "natural born citizen." You can wiggle all you want, but it's clear. You have no answer to Rogers v. Bellei who clearly state that we follow this

We thus have an acknowledgment that our law in this area follows English concepts with an acceptance of the jus soli, that is, that the place of birth governs citizenship status except as modified by statute.

625 posted on 10/28/2011 3:59:59 PM PDT by sometime lurker
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