To: Yosemitest
I appreciate your more than thirty years of air traffic control experience. As for my credentials, pleased look at my screen name. It stands for Certificated Flight Instructor, Instrument Instructor, Multiengine Instructor and the 737 is the first of the many type ratings I hold in a variety of jet aircraft. Not included is my masters degree in aeronautical science, my fifteen years as a professor of aeronautical science and over eleven thousand hours of pilot in command and over five thousand hours of instruction given.
You say that this has happened before. Could you please cite an NTSB finding to support your claim?
To: CFIIIMEIATP737
Read
this (Tommy Rose Pre-Crash Photo: Source?) and if you want the photo of the pre-crash evidence of that 2002 wake turbulence crash, you can request it yourself.
From
another source about Tommy Rose's crash.
The aircraft is believed to have entered the wake turbulence of another racer, began porpoising, had the tail detach, then crashed into the ground.
Tommy was pronounced dead at the scene at 14:45 (GMT)
Have you seen this photo?
![](http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/jT0jFrsFHrewPZ071fT3PQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD00NDg7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/4bab4a3a056b2715f90e6a706700e664.jpg)
Tom Rose is a commercial pilot in Mississippi whose father died racing in the same Reno event in 2002 in what appeared to be similar circumstances, although he crashed far from the crowd.
His father, 62-year-old Tommy Rose, was flying an experimental sport plane about 200 feet off the ground when a stabilizer broke off the tail, his son said Saturday. At that altitude, he had nowhere to go but down.
He said in his dad's case, like many crashes at the air show, he had just pushed his plane beyond its limits in an effort to win, and it broke apart.
"But you want to push your plane to its limits because you want to be competitive. That's what you're there for," he said.
Still, Rose said, he'd like to see the races continue.
"My dad passed doing what he loved, and I think so many of those guys who fly out there would say the same thing," he added. "They'd rather go this way than in a nursing home."
119 posted on
09/18/2011 10:09:41 PM PDT by
Yosemitest
(It's simple, fight or die.)
To: CFIIIMEIATP737
Since you're a CFI, you know that a
Mustang P-51 is a CAT III aircraft for wake turbulence. Source is almost at the bottom, after
ROCKWELL INTERNATIONAL CORP. (USA) I don't know what type aircraft were ahead of him, but I assume the similar type aircraft with similar type speeds.
You also know
the definition of:
WAKE TURBULENCE- Phenomena resulting from the passage of an aircraft through the atmosphere. The term includes vortices, thrust stream turbulence, jet blast, jet wash, propeller wash, and rotor wash both on the ground and in the air.
You know that a touch and go/low approach (what is closest to the air racing low to the ground) over the same runway requires,
When either is a Category III aircraft- 6,000 feet and that's at a normal landing speed.
These racing aircraft were NOT a landing speed.
You're familiar with the AIM, chapter 7, but just in case you want to review it,
click here.
But let's review anyway.
... The strength of the vortex is governed by the weight, speed, and shape of the wing of the generating aircraft. The vortex characteristics of any given aircraft can also be changed by extension of flaps or other wing configuring devices as well as by change in speed. However, as the basic factor is weight, the vortex strength increases proportionately. Peak vortex tangential speeds exceeding 300 feet per second have been recorded. ...
1. In rare instances a wake encounter could cause inflight structural damage of catastrophic proportions. However, the usual hazard is associated with induced rolling moments which can exceed the roll-control authority of the encountering aircraft. In flight experiments, aircraft have been intentionally flown directly up trailing vortex cores of larger aircraft. It was shown that the capability of an aircraft to counteract the roll imposed by the wake vortex primarily depends on the wingspan and counter-control responsiveness of the encountering aircraft.
2. Counter control is usually effective and induced roll minimal in cases where the wingspan and ailerons of the encountering aircraft extend beyond the rotational flow field of the vortex. It is more difficult for aircraft with short wingspan (relative to the generating aircraft) to counter the imposed roll induced by vortex flow. Pilots of short span aircraft, even of the high performance type, must be especially alert to vortex encounters.
(See FIG 7-3-2.)
![](http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap7/F0703002.gif)
Something else that you probably are aware of is wind's effects on wake turbulence.
But just remember
A crosswind will decrease the lateral movement of the upwind vortex and increase the movement of the downwind vortex. Thus a light wind with a cross runway component of 1 to 5 knots could result in the upwind vortex remaining in the touchdown zone for a period of time and hasten the drift of the downwind vortex toward another runway. (See FIG 7-3-6.) Similarly, a tailwind condition can move the vortices of the preceding aircraft forward into the touchdown zone. THE LIGHT QUARTERING TAILWIND REQUIRES MAXIMUM CAUTION. ... (See FIG 7-3-7.)
![](http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap7/F0703006.gif)
![](http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap7/F0703007.gif)
Look, I'm not trying to get into an ego contest here.
I have several college degrees also. And I know that this is going to be a legal nightmare.
But when it's all said and done, it's going to be "pilot error".
The pilot went under someone's wake, when he should have went slightly above that lead aircraft's flight path.
Never, but never, cross under and inside a high performance aircraft's track.
I'm trying to save lives, here.
Don't get caught up in the "large, heavy" mentality for wake turbulence.
Don't forget about aircraft category classes (CAT I, CAT II, and CAT III).
Also, helicopters can produce some very dangerous wake turbulence, even though they are physically small.
Never, never, NEVER, forget about high performance aircraft. That error will kill you, and your passengers.
Have a good night.
P.S. I knew Tommy Rose.
120 posted on
09/18/2011 11:25:47 PM PDT by
Yosemitest
(It's simple, fight or die.)
To: CFIIIMEIATP737
Take a look at this photo, and consider the size of the wake.
Also realize that the wake is behind the aircraft and much larger than the aircraft.
Also realize that the aircraft is probably in level flight at just above landing speed.
Here's another photo to consider.
Realize that the larger vortices at the wingtips are NOT visible in this second photo.
What's my point? My point is to consider:
where the "Galloping Ghost was in the race, and how many aircraft were ahead of him.
How many loops had they made around the pylons?
In other words, how tore up was the air where the modified P-51 Mustang first encountered its roll (the point of the wake turbulence encounter)?
121 posted on
09/19/2011 10:40:47 AM PDT by
Yosemitest
(It's simple, fight or die.)
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