“There are lots and lots of “ideas” here. One is that you should go sticking your nose into what goes on in stable marriages and tell people what to do and how to spend their money - just like liberals”
I’m not sure which part of Humanae Vitae does that. I don’t recall ever getting a letter from the pope telling us how to spend our money.
No one has stuck their nose into our marriage. The church HAS presented it’s position -and we have the freedom to accept it...or not.
There ARE a ton of liberals in the church though!
But they don’t appear to be the ones you find repulsive.
I’m confused by your concern with nose-sticking, nosiness, and this seeming epidemic of voyerism.
I don’t know anyone like this. At all.
Of course...I don’t frequent these threads much. I used to years ago and realized that once people pick their side -that’s it. Years later, the arguments are the same only with different names.
Years from now - it’ll still be the same.
I don’t think that -what is going on in one small section of cyberland is affecting any election outcome.
“But, I also spend a lot of time talking to very smart and well-educated people who find the fact that the arguments on this thread even go on troubling enough to side with Democrats”
These well educated people just learned that the Church is opposed to artificial birth control? Really? What exactly clued them in?
When did all of this become NEWS to anyone?
“I would like people to stop confusing religious labels and political labels. Is conservatism a thing that is divisible among various religions, a piece of conservatism that is Catholic, a piece that is evangelical, a piece that is Jewish? “
That’s a good question. In the catholic church there is a great divide between liberal and conservative catholics.
On issues regarding birth control, female priests, gay marriage (or “civil unions”),abortion,”social justice”
Yes - 2 camps. Some people find a gray area between the 2 camps, but the trend is....the more you agree with the Church on these issues - the more likely it is you will be pulling the “R” lever.
I would suppose an atheist conservative would be a business minded, supply sider. I would even expect them to be anti-abortion (ex:godlessprolifers)
I have read many threads on FReerepublic about the jewish vote. I have also read many news articles as well.
Not once have I seen it presented that jews vote democrat because the catholic church opposed artificial birth control.
If I were to guess ....I wouldn’t think they’d lurk on these threads or pay much attention to that at all.
Humane Vitae is not the issue. It is what folks have said on this thread that is the issue. And the issue is not particularly about Catholics either.
“I’m not sure which part of Humanae Vitae does that. I don’t recall ever getting a letter from the pope telling us how to spend our money.”
Dern, Wagglebee, you are one charitable person.
Myself, I get all irate when I see libtards ignoring the actual issues and pretending that contraception is nothing more than “spending money.”
“I’m confused by your concern with nose-sticking, nosiness, and this seeming epidemic of voyerism. I don’t know anyone like this. At all.”
That’s a narrative the left created to draw people’s gaze away from the real issues.
“Years later, the arguments are the same only with different names.”
Not always. Since I began these asynchronous conversations on line, back around 1990, I have been forced by evidence and reason to change my opinions on the existence of God, extramarital sex, same-sex attraction disorder, abortion, the legalization of drugs, divorce, the nature of marriage, play-pretend women clergy, altar girls, and probably a bunch of other stuff I don’t remember right now.
I persuaded at least one person that SSAD is not a good thing, albeit over a period of months.
I don’t know how much good is done by standing up to Satan and all his works on line, but I am persuaded that it is more than none.
“I don’t think that what is going on in one small section of cyberland is affecting any election outcome.”
One brick in the wall, perhaps, but still one brick.
“When did all of this become NEWS to anyone?”
There are book-smart, well-educated people who are leftards *despite* those facts rather than because of them. I think the baptismal vows explain that thoroughly in one phrase: “The Glamor of Evil.”
“In the catholic church there is a great divide between liberal and conservative catholics...the more you agree with the Church on these issues - the more likely it is you will be pulling the “R” lever.”
Spot on.
When people speak of leftism, they are usually referring to economic leftism (which makes a people poor), political leftism (which enslaves a people), and social leftism (which robs a people of moral standards and artistic discernment).
There is, however, another form of leftism—one that is rarely called by its name. This is theological leftism, and it may be the worst of them all, as it leads one away from God while insisting on its own superiority to “outdated tradition.”
Now, we know that all leftism is of and from Satan. We observe how the proponents of leftism lie constantly, attempt to deceive, coerce those who won’t be deceived, and extol the tolerance of evil—including abortion, divorce, sodomy, promiscuity, and even mass murder. This is true as well of theological leftism. It seeks to foment disobedience to God by appeal to a “more modern,” and therefore superior, “understanding” of the Bible.
When we seek to discern whether a given premise or movement is theologically leftist, then, we can look for several telltale characteristics.
1. Does it claim an understanding of Scripture that is superior to what existed before?
2. Do its proponents rely extensively on falsehood when discussing differences?
3. Do its proponents engage in coercion, either inside our outside their own group?
4. Does it claim the moral superiority of the tolerance of evil, particularly that which allows the indulgence of the sin of lust (divorce, sodomy, promiscuity, etc)?
5. Above all, does it countenance the slaughter of the most innocent?
There are theological leftists within the Catholic Church, yes, but because its foundations are solid, they have been unable to bring it down. It appears that evil within the Church has reached its high-water mark and is receding, laus Deo.
One need not look far to find churches that are totally under the sway of the five telltales listed above, and some within them display one more characteristic of theological leftism: blind, irrational hatred of the Catholic Church. When such people attempt to criticize the Church, they do so with all the hatred, illogic, and dishonesty shown by any other sort of leftist.
It is worth noting that one can be a theological leftist while retaining conservative beliefs in the economic and political realms.
“I would suppose an atheist conservative would be a business minded, supply sider. I would even expect them to be anti-abortion (ex:godlessprolifers)”
Conservatism is a seamless garment. There are no gaps, no disconnects, no conflicts, no contradictions in this world view. However, many—perhaps all—of us who have recovered or are in the process of recovering from default liberalism in our youth recover one step at a time. Even after a “road to Damascus” experience, we may first come to understand the issue of abortion, but continue to think that extra-marital sex, divorce, and sodomy are just fine. Next, perhaps, we have an epiphany on divorce, then a couple of years later our eyes are opened on the subject of extra-marital sex. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And, of course, all fall short.
Over the past 12 years, I have seen recovering liberals at all stages here on FR. I have gone through stages myself. And I have also come to think that economic conservatism by itself is little more than the love of money. Sure, economic conservatives understand how a country makes itself prosperous, but how are they different from the cynic who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing?
I will admit that I have never seen in the eyes of an economic conservative that whacko, vacant, Stepford-human googledygob stare you find in the eyes of a “social justice” Catholic. That may be because economic conservatism is not of and from Satan, whereas the Earl of Hell has to have his hooks in you pretty deeply before you can accept the horrors of abortion, promiscuity, divorce, and sodomy.
Still, economic conservatism is incompatible with sexual libertarianism, because those vices cost society a lot of money and other resources. Ditto divorce and promiscuity. And the only way all those things can be brought into line is through God. If you fail to grasp that God exists, you will be dealing with or repressing contradictions constantly.
IMO, a person who is an atheist is not a conservative. He is a liberal who understands some economics.
“Not once have I seen it presented that jews vote democrat because the catholic church opposed artificial birth control.”
Best I can tell, many Jews vote Democrat for the same reason blacks do: they are convinced that Republicans are prejudiced against them.
Sorry for calling you Wagglebee. I meant to say Scotswife, of course.