Well the entire scientific world is guilty of this charge. What in the world is Christian Anthropology? There is anthropology as a science, but as a religion [setting aside that some anthropology is liberal mumbo jumbo]? Or have you guys cooked up another set of mumbo jumbo code words for running a creationist thread under the radar.
Second, yes we know that this is not just a Catholic issue. In fact my presumption going in was that this was another fundamentalist issue gone nuclear in its extremity. Most of the folks on "your side" of the table are not Catholics, I am guessing, but hard core calvinists, since it all comes across as much more old-testament than new testiment in a way that Catholics are generally not guilty of. The lack of charity towards the human condition is a big sign. The need to tell other folks how to live according to your rules is another.
We already know that the issue of contraception is not that it prevents conception since you recognize "natural" planning. Indeed the issue is not the failure to be fruitful by conceiving at every imaginably possible moment because you recognize and advocate abstinence. Nor is it an issue of the inventions of modern science since "natural" planning is really only possible and accurate because of the understanding developed by modern science and the use of modern scientific instruments.
Let us add that abstinence is not "natural" and is certainly not conducive to a stable marriage. God did not create the human physiology wired up that way whatever "Christian physiology" might say on the subject, but rather the other way, which is why we reproduce at all. In fact in former times and in other places men used very violent methods to set asunder that which God untended us to join.
Finally you moral midgets cannot make the moral distinctions that most folks in this world can. Any reasoning person knows the enormous moral difference between not promoting conception at every imaginable instant, and aborting a conceived child. You are just talking two-faced gobbledygook to lay a guilt trip on the part of the population that is susceptible to your guilt-tripping ways. This behavior is repellent to a large fraction of decent human beings, most of whom are very much troubled by abortion. Because you work so hard to make off with the "conservative" label the number of folks who will have nothing to do with conservatism because they see you as the ugly human face of conservatism is considerable. So we go on with a welfare system and spending sprees that a good majority actually has a hard time accepting. You loose all of the conservative war because you want your way on an issue that you are just never going to get.
And morally the problem is that for all of your moralizing you don't have a solution and have washed your hands of finding a solution because you claim that God told you the solution. But you know what. He didn't and you are no better than the rest of us. In fact, because your ears are stopped and your heart is black with pride and arrogance you are not better only not better, but far far worse than other people.
Here is an example of your ignorant self absorbed thoughtlessness. You state "It is not a given that a husband will always abandon his family after they have more than a certain number of children." So you yourself recognize the strain on a marriage of more children than you have the resources (financial, emotional, etc.) to raise. But you think that it is ok to call for measures that will destroy marriages through popping out all the children that God intended them to have, or destroy marriage by abstaining from sex because it "is not a given that this will always occur." Your ill-chosen conditional demonstrate that you are all too aware that this actually occurs all to frequent.
Many of the sins in this world are the result of what happens outside of stable marriages. Why, therefore, do you seek to interfere in what goes on between man and wife in a stable one? Why? What real evil are you preventing by doing that?
You aren't a moral human being. You are simply a voyeur.
Actually that was another posters assertion. But statistics that I posted stated that 66% of divorces are childless couples.
At least 66% of all the divorced couples in America are childless. This is also one of the main reasons of getting divorced according to experts. Statistics also reveal that couples with children have lower chances of getting divorced than a couple who is childless.
I am surprised that you have no knowledge of the field of Christian Anthropology. It is not something I just made up out of whole cloth. A good example of a work that is centered on Christian Anthropology is John Paul II’s “Theology of the Body.” I am not familiar with a Reformed work on the subject but I do know the principles of Christian Anthropology are not unknown to many of them.
Since it is unfamiliar to you I suppose an apologetic advancing the Trinitarian nature of marriage would be wasted on you.
Your claim that abstinence is not natural and inconducive to a stable marriage would certainly surprise Orthodox Jews. True they do not abstain by religious decree because of family planning but they to abstain because of other reasons. Yet there is nothing to suggest this causes unstable marriages.
You are so lacking in actual knowledge of Catholic teaching and what was Christian teaching till 1930 it is at best laughable. Show me where in any official Church teaching that conception at every possible moment is advocated. True we are to be open to life. So talk to God about how He made sex our method of procreation. But we are not required to have sex the minute our basal body temperatures hit that old YE IS FERTILE line. That would objectify the women and insult the marriage as much as the use of artificial birth control does.
The same mentality that looks on a child as something to be prevented at all costs is the same mentatlity that advocates abortion as a way of taking care of accidents that should have been prevented. Why else are the majority of abortions performed on women who were using a method of birth control. It has also lead to the mentality that a child is some sort of high grade accessory that you can have done up to your liking. So sex selection abortion is o.k. IVF is o.k. Surrogacy is o.k. Fertility treatments which may lead to selective abortions are o.k. Not saying Christians or you believe these are o.k. But that society has embraced these matters as being legitimate.
All of the above deny the basic dignity of the parents and the child. Which is also part of the Christian Anthropology you scoff at.
Not sure what your point is about the welfare system?
As to this “You state ‘It is not a given that a husband will always abandon his family after they have more than a certain number of children. So you yourself recognize the strain on a marriage of more children than you have the resources (financial, emotional, etc.) to raise. But you think that it is ok to call for measures that will destroy marriages through popping out all the children that God intended them to have, or destroy marriage by abstaining from sex because it “is not a given that this will always occur.” Your ill-chosen conditional demonstrate that you are all too aware that this actually occurs all to frequent.”
Learn to comprehend and not jump to conclusions. I have no idea what may or may not cause stress in a paticular marriage. The number of children may whether it is two children or 8 children. The miles a husband has to commute to work may also be stressful to a marriage. So if you told me that the husband driving 75 miles to work each day caused enough stress in the marriage that it ended in divorce I would point out that not all marriages where the husband commuted long distances ended in divorce. It no more means most of them do than your assertion that yes some marriages may experience stress due to the number of children means most of them do. Admitting to a possibility is not admitting to whether that is always or even the majority of the case.
I do agree that if a woman has a large number of children because her husband did think he had to jack rabbit her every time she was fertile and did not respect that the spacing of children was allowed for grave reasons than yes the strain would probably be very great and yes in such a situtation would most likely lead to a breakdown of the marriage. But that is not Catholic teaching. It is not Catholic teaching because it disregards the dignity of the wife by viewing her only as a means to produce children. That is an example of objectification.
Why in the world do you claim I or anyone who raises the Catholic argument against artificial birth control wishes to intefere in a stable marriage? Hyperbole is not attractive. We are pointing out how the use of contraceptives has not lead to a decrease in the abortion rate but rather contributes to that practice. We are speaking of society at large. You know that hook up, STD carrying, gay rights, serial marrying, aborting, fornicating, exploiting of children, and usurping of parental rights society. The one that all Christians are supposed to hold themselves apart from. The one that all Christians are supposed to offer an better vision to.
But our failure to admit that the pill and the sexual revolution it contributed to is a failure to proclaim the Gospel. The use of the pill in a Christian marriage does not lead to any of the above things. I would never say that. But its use within a Christian marriage is a denial of the full self giving love of the spouses to one another as modeled after the Trinity. It is also a distorted reflection of Christ’s love for His bride the Church. It is also a disobedience against the call for wives and husbands to submit to one another fully.
Your failure to understand that is not so unusual. But to claim I am a moral midget because I do grasp that is rather laughable.
I am a sinner who is in need of a Savior. That Savior is Jesus Christ through whom all things were made. Does that make me an amoral human being? I guess to you it must. But it is by Grace alone I am given Salvation. You are not the dispenser of that Grace or any other graces. So I have no heed of your natterings and your claim to superiority. I stand with the Truth. Which is defended and taught by the One, Holy and Apostolic Church.
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I will keep this simple for you. If you wish to understand Christian Anthropology you must begin with
Imago Dei.