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First you are making a claim for "this" side of the table, that we on this side do not claim, namely that contraception has somehow ended all resort to the act of abortion. Abortion has a long history as does contraception, both going back to ancient times, and so I would not want to argue which predated which.

Abortion IS a form of contraception.

The problem on "your" side of the table is the continual resort to this kind of absolute, all or nothing, because at the same time a lot of abortions have not happened because the pregnancy that might give rise to an abortion did not occur because contraception was properly and effectively employed.

Yes, for the pro-life "side" (which I notice you exclude yourself from), it IS all or nothing. 53 MILLION babies have died and we want it to end.

Kaila is not "sitting and pretending" anything much. She has narrated the exerience of herself and her relative. We do ourselves no harm to take her experience at face value and argue the ethics from that point.

Kaila has a long history of opposing the pro-life movement. I don't give a damn what she thinks.

Let us be clear. Abortion is caused by those who engage in the act of abortion and by no other actor or agent.

So, your contention is that it hasn't been pushed on society at all?

This all gets back to the point of personal responsibility, a point that your side, in its haste to deride condoms, will not make and stand upon. It is your winning argument, not this condoms cause communism malarky or even the line that condoms are a communist conspiracy.

NOBODY on this thread has suggested banning condoms or the Pill. This thread is about the FACT that contraception has not prevented 4000 babies a day from being killed. THAT is the topic of this thread, a topic which you are unwilling to discuss. YOU have bought into the lie that condoms prevent abortion, it is brought to you by the same people who came up with the lie that welfare ended poverty.

This is a pro-life forum, if your answer to ending abortions is more condoms and birth control pills you are very much mistaken.

YOU have bought into the lie that condoms prevent abortion, it is brought to you by the same people who came up with the lie that welfare ended poverty. This is a pro-life forum, if your answer to ending abortions is more condoms and birth control pills you are very much mistaken.

First, I am opposed to abortion. Let us bring about its end as soon as we can. But contraception does not cause abortion. Irresponsible people do. And welfare breeds irresponsible people. And free spending liberals expand welfare. So free spending liberals cause abortion. So, can we get back to that budget thingee.

Now, all of that is just a little bit glib, and the whole situation is a lot more complex than that, which I admit, but you won't.

But one thing is certain is that contraception did not cause all of that. Lack of individual responsiblity caused all of that, and I just won't buy the argument that using contraception is a sign of individual irresponsibility. I really just won't buy it.

“Kaila has a long history of opposing the pro-life movement. I don’t give a damn what she thinks.”

What is my long history? I am usually on the anti illegal alien threads.
I opposed the extraordinary care of one case (a terminally ill infant) on about 2 threads, which even the Pope has said himself that extraordinary care is not necessary.
From the Catholic Resource center:Third, we believe that each person is bound to use ordinary means of caring for personal health. Here one would think of basic care, which obviously includes proper nourishment and hydration — food and water — and ordinary medial care — common medical treatments. Ordinary means would be those which offer reasonable hope of benefit and are not unduly burdensome to either the patient or the family.

A person may, but is not bound to, use extraordinary means — those means which primarily are not considered ordinary care or common medical treatments. These means do not offer reasonable hope of benefit and may be excessively burdensome to either the patient or the family.

May, but is not bound to.That is the essential statement.
So my line of thought is no different than the Catholic Church. A ventilator for a terminally ill patient is extraordinary care. You may now say- “he is not on a ventilator, you were wrong!. However, you are not there in the room. You do not know what is now going on. So stop bringing it up that I am anti life. It gets real old.I have saved more lives in my lifetime than you ever will.