Posted on 08/12/2011 10:29:30 PM PDT by robertvance
On August 14th, 1912, the United States launched its first aircraft carrier, the USS Langley. This 11,500 ton ship served during both World Wars until its luck ran out near Java in 1942 and had to be abandoned and sunk in order to avoid capture by the Japanese.
Almost one hundred years later, China has just launched its first aircraft carrier and the U.S. State department is demanding to know why.
"We would welcome any kind of explanation that China would like to give for needing this kind of equipment," said Victoria Nuland, a State department spokeswoman.
Let me give you the explanation, Victoria. China is the world’s largest country and has recently become the second largest economy behind the United States. China is also the undisputed powerhouse in Asia. Is that a good enough explanation for you?
(Excerpt) Read more at teachabroadchina.com ...
And just as Taiwan built up her military as well as South Korea, China is doing the same.
As far as Nazi Germany, well you have to realize, that right out of the gate, once the Nazi party came into power, began on an extensive military build up that required upwards of 50% of her economy. What is China's military budget as a percentage of GDP? Even if you don't believe China's budget and the Pentagon's, but is it? Its nowhere near 50%. Not even 5% of her GDP.
I don't believe so. China's rise, has more to do with her ability to adapt Western thinking than to some overriding communist scheme.
This is the thing that sort of frustrates me a bit. From 1949 to 1969, there was a grand Chinese Communist theme. Anti-Western, Anti-Christian, Anti-Imperialism, etc. And the country fell further back. In the end, communism really did lose out in China.
The irony is, as China becomes more Westernized, many who become alarmed, see China AS MORE OF A COMMUNIST COUNTRY TODAY than yesterday. Isn't that ironic?
As far as err in attributing to Western thinking. Well, I dunno. There are Chinese Christians today that want to go to the Muslim world to evangelize. Knowing that they don't carry with them the stigma of Western Imperialists. So, I dunno....in some ways, that sort of reasoning can be seen as more Westernized than most individuals in the West.
Well I would like to see our two nations have long and good relations.
However I do not see China doing anything to benefit America.
Only the other way around. Everything is one-way.
That is not a good relationship. That is trouble.
PING.
If I can persuade the VHS player to work, I have all of them on tape - well all the surviving ones that were shown here about 6 years back - can burn them to DVD for you.
But pretty much every country does that. I know the UK does, even Canada does, when they can get away with it. The French do it all the time.
So does the USA.
It is part of jockeying your country slightly ahead of the rest. An accepted and acceptable part of world diplomacy. If we have something the Chinese want, they will reciprocate. If we don’t but they do, as at present, they will try to call the shots.
With all due respect, the last time China ran this sort of trade inbalance with a western nation it was with Britain, and a war started because of it.
True. And it was us started the war - wrongly. Trying to get advantage, through our arrogance in our power.
Just wanted to apologise for any bad tone in that last post - it is late and this worries me a bit more than it should. Not just the new naval strength, but the dismissive tone of some of the posters regarding China’s ability. This isn’t 1970 any more. It is better to overestimate your opponent than to underestimate them.
I have watched China carefully for years, though am no expert. I even speak and read Cantonese (slowly), though Mandarin seems to be beyond me as far as speaking goes - the tonal shifts are a little too subtle for me to catch.
The Chinese have the West firmly by the b*lls at the moment, being the sole producers of 4 or 5 different elements we need. They are not going to rock the boat. Not for quite some time. One thing the Chinese are is very, very patient.
No offense taken.
Britain was right to stand up for its interests, and we need to stand up now.
I’m not advocating a real war, but real import tariffs and a real trade policy, must be initiated.
Agree with your comments, almost completely.
I might note, that last trade tiff, resulted in British Hong Kong. Don’t sell standing up for national interests, short.
I'm glad to hear that and that there is potential.
However I do not see China doing anything to benefit America.
Well, America and China are becoming more intertwind. And one thing we do need to keep in mind, especially given that China is acquiring Western technology, is that the trade relation between the US/West and China was driven by the West. Really, check the history books, you'll see that all along, trade was the West's doing, from Imperialism to the opening of Japan by Matthew Perry to the Open Door policies in China. It was driven entirely by the West.
Only the other way around. Everything is one-way.
Not really. When one looks at trade in its purest form between a rich nation and a poor one, the poor country is trading its labor for goods from rich countries. And very cheaply at that (the labor). Trade between the rich countries and poor countries really wasn't an issue with the rich countries until the middle of the 20th century. Before that, poor countries complained of the rich taking advantage of the poor's labor.
It is when the poor countries began investing in their people more, by sending them to colleges and universities in the West, developing industrial plans to allow their labor to work in higher value industries. Japan was the most successful at it, then Korea and Taiwan. And to lesser degrees, Middle Eastern and Latin American countries. And now countries like China and India. So, really, the global trade we see today was driven by the West. It was only after people in the poor countries began to move up the value chain did people in the rich countries begin to grumble about trade. Trade which was originally started by the West.
That is not a good relationship. That is trouble.
It doesn't have to be trouble. Countries that were once poor can begin benefiting the world too. And I'm going to make a bold prediction you may not like.
Robert Gates was in Europe not too long ago. And he highlighted Europe's lack of willingness to maintain military readiness. Even brought up the fact that military campaign in Libya, which was started by NATO, wound up requiring military help from the US. I don't see this picture changing over the next few decades given that Europe will need to deal with severe austerity measures.
And just because war in Iraq is winding down and there is an expected pull out from Afghanistan, doesn't mean the world is suddenly at peace. America is going to need help somewhere down the road. And it won't be against China, despite what many on the FR believe. There'll eventually be a conflict with someone else. And as much as it will pain Americans do it, especially those with the same political perspective as those on the FR, America will one day ask China for help.
Americans would rather see a European Flag fly next to her in combat, as this appear as natural as mom's apple pie to them. But I feel strongly, that someday, America will have to get used to a Chinese Flag next to her while going into combat.
Here's an even bolder prediction. As America and China continue to police the world. America could potentially go European on them, i.e., begin to allow the Chinese to do more and more of the work. And 50, 60, etc. years from now, it will be the Chinese who will be frustrated with America's lack of help in maintaining global peace.
And no....I'm not smoking anything....this is where I believe China could someday be more Western than the West ;)
I think China is becoming an abusive partner.
Unless that changes, the relationship will go very wrong.
A 50 billion a month one-way trade imbalance is not “intertwined” by any stretch of anyone’s imagination.
50 billion a month is annualized at 600 billion a year. I don't believe its that high.
But China is in a dollar trap. Granted, its better to be in a dollar trap than in a situation where they were without the global trade they are in today. However, its call a dollar trap for them, because their entire economic system is based on a global trade in which the dollar and not their own currency is the primary means of exchange. In other words, when they sell a product to South Korea, the South Koreans have to exchange the won's into dollars, then the Chinese have to exchange their dollars that they got from the South Koreans into yuans. Then the government, with all these dollars, don't know what to do with them. So, they stash it back into US government bonds.
But the US economy, has a $14.5 trillion debt (most of which are owned by Americans), in which the Chinese have about a trillion. Though the other 2 trillion the Chinese have are in banks, financial institutions that may indirectly buy government bonds. But China wants to get away from using the dollar in international trade. In order from them to do that, they will be forced to free float the yuan, which likely will push the value of the yuan up. Could double or even triple in the next two decades. And eventually, all of China's dollar holdings, will have less and less value to them.
And if China does succeed in getting the yuan as a reserve currency, this could put downward pressure on the dollar, in which China holds $3 trillion in one way or another.
And likely, what will happen, is that China will instead, use those $3 trillion in investing in small, medium cap companies, and ultimately large cap companies in the US and the West. In the long run, nothing looks different, except, there will simply be Chinese managers in the picture in the West. It makes no sense, to invest in another countries company, shut it down and open it up overseas in their home country. Rather, the management staff in say, an American company, merely changes. Everything else looks the same.
So, in the end, what really happens with trade, is that a generation or two of American and other Westerners got away with hundres of billions of hours of extremely cheap labor from China. And in return, China got knowledge, and is currently getting knowledge as it hasn't all been absorbed yet.
And that, in a nutshell, is really what got traded. When I look around America, I see nothing lost. Really, the homes are bigger today than when I was a kid in the 70's. And definitely bigger than in the 50's during the height of America's "golden era". The are more cars today, more electronic gadgets, more energy consumption, etc. than ever before. And supporting a population twice as large as the early 1950's.
It isn't that America lost anything with trade, rather, that in exchange for imparting knowledge to other countries, other countries gave in return, cheap labor. But more accurately, trade between America and a developing country always results in America getting cheap labor. But not all developing country receives knowlege from America. China, on the other hand, along with their predecessors Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, angled for knowledge. And China got alot of it and is continuing to get more.
So, really, the dollar value China is getting from trade, is ultimately a dollar with losing value. But trade, in essence, keeps China in a loop where she can continue to access knowledge.
And today of course, there is a high tech labor force of tens of millions in the US today that didn't exist in the 1950's. So, in reality, it really is more efficient to hire millions of laborers to make shoes for Americans while Americans focus on making Apple products, Microsoft, etc.
But where countries begin to upset the balance, is like what China is doing, and that is, trying to move up the value chain by angling for knowledge. And no, China didn't steal most of it. Alot of it, I admit, but you cannot have a competitive industry by stealing. US and other Western companies have to be willing, through joint ventures, etc. to hand it over. And that is what ultimately brings the ire of Western contries, the constant angling for technology.
If China or other devleping counties were content in just providing labor, I doubt people in rich countries would really complain all that much about it.
Commie lover.
Not only is it wrong, its wrong for you to even say it. And, it is ironic. I have absolutely no interest in seeing communism pervade in China or the world. I am happy that China is going down the road of free enterprise, entrepeneuralism, etc.
I do support, however, China's right to become a developed nation. To learn and understand the latest in science, economics, business, etc. Even a better understanding of law, checks and balances, etc. In other words, a China that is truely entering a modern 21st Century society. Not some minor off shoot of a Western satellite country. But an independent sovereign developed country of 1.4 billion people. Where modern living pervades all communities in China like a developed country, not just the major cities like most developing economies. With the rule of law instead of the rule of man. And one in which the US is not only a allied country, but even in partnership with.
"Should"...what is that supposed to mean?
Taiwan is an independent sovereign country. It has never, through-out the islands history, never been a part of mainland China.
As far as mainland China is concerned, Taiwan has merely been a convenient refuge for scoundrels, scalawags, ne'er-do-wells and warlords seeking refuge from the continuous deceits, betrayals and being on the sh!t-list of whatever "king of heaven" inbred that happened to occupy the throne at the time.
If you are going to come on FR and pimp for the PRC/CCP invasion of Taiwan, you might consider that there are some who will dis-agree with such pimpery.
Well, I'm not a communist. Show me, in my postings where I promotie communisn?
It seems truly to be advancing the politboro talking points 100%.
Well....what are the poliburo's talking points? From my perspective, I don't see anything wrong, with a nation of China, moving forward. And that includes developing a peace time military that is COMMENSURATE WITH A NATION FOR ITS SIZE IN POPULATION.
Only the mods I suppose, know if it's posting from Beijing.
I'm posting from the US and have nothing to be ashamed of. Nothing I've posted for the last 10 years and maybe a thousand or two postings later have ever been anti American or pro Communist.
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