Dum-dum bullets used in Norway island shooting

news.com.au ^ | 25 July 2011 | Shawn Pogatchnik

[smokingfrog]

The gunman who slaughtered dozens of campers at a Norwegian island retreat used special bullets designed to disintegrate inside the body and cause maximum internal damage, the chief surgeon at a hospital treating victims said.

Colin Poole, head of surgery at Ringriket Hospital in Honefoss north-west of Oslo, told AP surgeons treating 16 gunshot victims have recovered only tiny fragments on bullets from victims' bodies, adding that the exit wounds were unusually small and weak.

"These bullets more or less exploded inside the body. All the energy of the bullets was deposited inside the tissue," Poole said.

"They inflicted internal damage that's absolutely horrible."

** -snip- **

Ballistics experts say dum-dum bullets are lighter in weight and can be fired with greater accuracy over varying distances. They commonly are used by air marshals and hunters of small animals.

Poole, a surgeon for 26 years at the hospital, said the bullets were "hyper-fragmentable" and produced confusing pictures on X-rays.

"It's caused us all kinds of extra problems in dealing with the wounds they cause, with very strange trajectories," he said.

[smokingfrog]

Is it possible that he used frangible rounds?

That's what it sounds like to me.

Possibly something like the Berger VLD Bullets.

[FlyVet]

I’ve never heard the term dum-dum used to describe ammunition.

You must be young. "Dum-dum bullets" was a mediot favorite, back in the days maybe 15+ years ago, when Liberal Democrats thought they were making inroads into gun rights.

They harped and carped about the evil Black Talon bullets for a few years, until they got tired of it. (Of course similar bullets are still made, like Golden Saber and such, but they don't have such an evil-sounding name, so Pavlov's Dogs got tired of barking about it).

And they've mostly shut up about it for years, since they found out they'd lose elections if they didn't get off it, like the chameleons that they are.

[FlyVet]

VLD means Very Low Drag. They are so named because of their long, sleek profile, which makes them cut through the air more easily. They resist velocity loss and wind drift, more than most bullets of their weight. They are long-range target and hunting bullets, but not frangibles. Solid lead-alloy core with copper-alloy jackets.

Frangibles actually have a frangible core, some sort of powdered or tiny bird-shot mix, encased with a copper-alloy jacket.

One good example of a state-of-the-art frangible is Barnes Varmint Grenade, which can handle very high velocity, but will go "poof" if it hits a grape. You can see the powdered core disintegrate as it passes through the little fruit:

http://www.barnesbullets.com/videos/224_36gr%20VG%204344_grape_logo.wmv

[West Texas Chuck]

"Published aerial pictures, apparently from choppers ..."

But the Norwegian cops couldn't find a chopper to get them into the action before all those kids were mowed down? Note to self: don't live in Norway.

Even here in Garland TX, the cops would have been all over some guy shooting kids like fish in a barrel. And they would not have taken an hour and a half to set up SWAT, I gar-on-tee. There would have been a dozen sharpshooters pointing deadly weapons on target in a much shorter amount of time. Now, if it had been in Heath or Fate, out in the sticks, maybe an extra 10 minutes to get shooters into he field of battle. Hell, the guys around here would have driven their own vehicles out there and been in place putting lead on the target, lickety split.

Remember Charles Whitman shooting from the tower at UT. Private citizens went into the kill zone and started shooting back at the tower before the cops were prepared to confront the situation. God Bless Texas.

[cpdiii]

A Glock pistol and a Mini-14.....

Dependent on the type of .223 ammo or 5.56mm (the military uses the 5.56 but although not identical they can both be used interchangeably in most weapons) the projectile can be quite frangible. The lighter projectiles have higher velocities and are prone to disintegration on impact. They can fragment and make a mess. However they oddly are less lethal than the slower and heavier 62 grain projectile that is the standard round for our military today. The 62 grain bullet will penetrate deeper and is more likely to cause fatal bleeding. In addition both the 55 grain and the 62 grain projectile are marginally stable and on impact will tumble and cause massive trauma. The 55 grain projectile is terribly unstable even in a very light rain.

Thank God the evil bastard was using a Mini-14. The Mini-14 is a well designed weapon with a piece of crap barrel. It is not very accurate. However, with a precision barrel it is an excellent weapon. If the evil bastard had a better weapon the carnage would have been even greater.

I worked in Norway for a few years in the late 70s and early 80s. They are wonderful, kind and loving people and in no way deserve this horrible act perpetrated by this evil bastard. When in Norway I never even once thought that I could be in danger of any violence. My heart goes out to them.

[VeniVidiVici]

I think most folks think hollow points are the same as dum-dums. This guy probably just used hollow points.

Working a range once in Germany a couple of the Germans in charge of the range wandered over to watch a few of us shoot our private weapons.

A LT I was with had a .357 and a box of hollow points. While talking with the Germans, one of them saw a few of the LT’s hollow point rounds on the table. He picked one up, looked straight at the LT and said, “Dum-dums are very bad. You’ll get more time in jail than sex with 15yo girl here in Germany.”

The poor LT turned white as a ghost. It was pretty funny.

[DH]

You are right in what you say.

The Mobsters in the 20’s and 30’s also used to “mark” their bullets so that they fragment better.

I keep .22 magnum “dum-dums” loaded in my trusty old Ruger revolver tucked into my nightstand. Might as well make every shot count so to speak.

[DH]

Remember Charles Whitman shooting from the tower at UT. Private citizens went into the kill zone and started shooting back at the tower before the cops were prepared to confront the situation. God Bless Texas.

---

That is a bit of history that is never mentioned any longer. Where did those private citizens get those guns? Well, from their cars and trucks in the parking lot.

Kind of tells you how far backward we have become since those days in the gun scare laws passed since then.

People took care of people. Today the government takes care of people. Without a gun at your side, when seconds count remember the police will be there in a matter of minutes.

[andyk]

They harped and carped about the evil Black Talon bullets for a few years

Just turned 39 last week. I suppose it is vaguely familiar. I think I try to ignore things when they seem nonsensical. I had collected some Black Talon in .40S&W, and unloaded them last year.

Now, the joke is that Winchester SXT, which replaced the Talon, stands for "Same eXact Thing".

[cycjec]

Norway laws are not as restrictive as some. People can own
guns of some varieties but there’s no CCW and guns being
transported must be unloaded. Both the New York Times and
the blog Mesopotamia West recently reported that the *police*
in Norway are generally unarmed.