Posted on 05/15/2011 10:53:45 AM PDT by Eleutheria5
Colin Firth is a fine, versatile actor. He is undoubtedly the best Mr. Darcy in all the movies made of Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice and is now set to play Avraham Stern, the intellectual and poet who became leader of the Jewish underground Fighters for the Freedom of Israel (LEHI), called the Stern Gang by the British.
Michael Winterbottom, who produced the film (to be called “The Promise”) did much of the research at the Begin Center and has stated that it is based on the true story of two British police detectives, Thomas Wilkin and Geoffrey Morton, who caught and killed Stern.
Thomas James Wilkin was decorated several times by the Crown for his services in Palestine in tracking down members of the Jewish underground. He spoke fluent Hebrew, taught to him by his Jewish mistress Shoshana Borochov.
Wilkins was himself killed two years after killing a handcuffed Avraham Stern, and, Winterbottom states: “Weirdly, we have at the end of the film, we have an interview, which we’ve already done with one of the people who assassinated Wilkin, who is still alive, two of them in fact, so we have them talking about how they assassinated Wilkin already, so it’s a great story.”
(Excerpt) Read more at israelnationalnews.com ...
This thread is worthless without Colin Firth as Mr. Darcy pics! I think Miss Austen would have heartily approved!
I’m not much into modern day chick flicks, but Jane Austen books translated to screen usually make me happy ;)
A confident nation needs to acknowledge what was not right.
I say the same to the Irish. Irish independence is great but do not forget those Irishmen and women who crossed the line.
Same applies to South Africa and the end of Apartheid. Nelson Mandela may have turned pacifist but many in the ANC did wrong
“They did the same to us” is not an excuse. Never is. Killing innocent civilians even for the “Greater Good” is a slippery slope
As annoying as I find the “Sainthood” that is imposed on people like Gandhi, MLK and Mandela, the one thing I do find amazing about all three of them is that they never believed in an “eye for an eye”. Each of them wished no death on their oppressors.
I wish that all nations would look deeply inside and see how many of their “heroes” killed innocents.
Many of FR will doubtless attack this post and say that the
“Brits” had it coming etc etc. Fine, you may believe that. I believe that too when it comes to Army vs Army. But when civilians start getting killed in the name of “my freedom” that is where I draw the line.
As horrific and vile as the Nazi regime was, killing over 5 million Germans by the Red Armies at the end of the war was a gigantic war crime and yet it remains unmourned today as the “Germans deserved it”
Probably the greatest mass rape occurred in modern history when the Red Armies swept through Europe in general and Germany in particular.
Extremism in any camp is bad. Israel has much to be proud of like the wars of 1948, 67 and 73. It is brilliant nation. It should today be confident enough to look deep inside and see if some of these “heroes” of their Independence were truly heroes if they killed civilians.
With modern SMART weapons the United States has become the nation most averse to innocent casualties in warfare in the history of the world. But war we must as our enemies will certainly war with us.
As a proud American it pains me when we kill Civilians. It truly does.
We are in a vicious war against the “ROP”. Yet, we are getting drawn into a war, where we are making big mistakes.
The reason for this is that we refuse to acknowledge that this war started with the GOVERMENTS of Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan.
If we truly want to win this war, we need to fight those nations and destroy their active support of Islamic Terrorism.
With current technologies no war will be 100% Civilian Casualty Free. Just won't happen with the technology we have.
However, where I think my nation is different is that we the US are not TRYING to kill Civilians. NOTE the difference. We no longer are aiming at Civilians. That does not mean that we are perfect.
I am not some rabid nationalist that thinks America is perfect. But the fact remains that the USA deploys the most “Civilian friendly” war machine in the world. That sounds like an awful oxymoron and I certainly understand the irony.
However, the USA has made it its policy to not target civilians deliberately. One day, with the grace of God, we will have uber smart weapons that can kill ONLY the bad guys. But I do know this: the USA today does more than ANY other nation in the world bar none to limit civilian casualties.
Talk to any of the Marines that went into Fallujah. Ask them how much easier it would have been to just nuke that blasted town. Ask them about how hard they worked to limit civilian casualties.
As a nation, we the Americans, have realized that deliberately targeting Civilians is not the thing to do.
The obvious question to me is what I think about Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Here is my response. I think that was in the grand scheme of things a mistake. The result of those bombings was CORRECT. Japan surrendered. Possibly a million lives overall were saved on both sides. However, the ends do not justify the means.
If I had been President in 1945 (easy to say, hard to actually live with those decisions) I would have dropped the nukes on the commercial areas of Tokyo or the Emperor's Palace in Tokyo.I would have let them see the devastation but limited civilian casualties.
I would have then told them that the next ten would be on top of their most populated areas and let them make a decision.
As I said above, easier said than done. Who knows how history would have turned. All I know today is that we should work hard to limit Civilian losses.
War is war and when pushed against a wall, we have to fight. It is a matter of survival. However, what distinguishes us from savages is our ability to show mercy and kindness for Civilians.
One of the best things America ever did was show mercy to Germany after WWII and help re-build it. It is a lesson we have applied to Iraq and Afghanistan and it makes us a better nation today.
Thanks for an excellent post. You are likely to get considerable grief for it.
Many a child played the theme from Exodus as part of a piano recital back in the late 1960's or early 1970's.
I know, however, I had to say my piece.
I am very supportive of Israel and all other Freedom loving nations like the UK, France, India, Italy, Ireland, Canada etc.
However, it bothers me when one is asked here on FR to accept something a 100%. "Everything that Israel does is good!". Horsecrap! I am a proud American and I don't even think everything we do as a country is a 100% good.
Israel is a modern day success story with much to be proud of. They are a beacon of freedom in the awful Middle East. But like ANY other nation, they have made mistakes. The mark of a mature nation is to have the strength to acknowledge mistakes. One of the big reasons I do NOT respect Russia is that it still has not apologized for the great destruction they wreaked upon Eastern Europe. They basically destroyed those countries for eternity. Most of them are now in a demographic drain-hole of extinction with no hope of climbing out.
Let us be proud of a strong and free Israel but let us not turn into idol worshipers by blindly supporting everything. God gave us a brain. Let us use it.
Flame away!
I liked Matthew Macfadyen as Mr. Darcey while Firth as perfect in `The King’s Speech.’
Please read my entire post. The independence of Israel (a fantastic thing!!!) was brought on by hundreds of thousands of very very good men and women who worked hard to give the Jews a homeland.
What bugs me is the tendency we have on the right to justify every part of the Independence struggle especially people like Stern.
In this respect the “Left” of Israel (Labor party etc) has been very fair in its introspection. However the “Right” of Israel (Likud etc) has been a very “black and white” party when it comes to people like Stern. The “Lehi Service Ribbon” in my opinion was ill considered.
The Lehi group requires some open minded thought processing. They are not pure Jewish heroes like the warriors at the Masada. Yes, they fought for Israeli independence but it is my considered opinion (and y’all may disagree) that the “ends do not justify the means”
Shalom!
Oh yes! Thanks for the eye candy.
My daughter and I are known to periodically revel in a day long feast of Collin Firth in Pride and Prejudice. It is like eating chocolate.
Wilkin was neither innocent nor a civilian. To what, specifically, are you referring?
But Uris is usually worthless as a historian.
I rarely go to the movies, but I did see The King’s Speech, which was wonderful. I remember King George and the Duke and Duchess of Windsor very well as a child, but i didn’t realize the King had such a debilitating speech problem. I thought his speech after they got into WWII was amazing at the time he gave it. God rest his soul.
I don't want to get into a propaganda war over here. One of the sad things about the Lehi group is how they are used by Arabs to demonize the ENTIRE Jewish nation.
As a result of the hyperbole and nonsense that comes out of the Arab Street about the Lehi group, any sensible critique of the Lehi group gets molded in with the anti semetic rantings of the Arab Street
To criticize the Lehi group today is guaranteed to attract an “anti Semitic” label to yourself.
As I said in my previous post, if one ignores the Arab Street, and thoughtfully thinks through the actions of the Lehi group, one can only wonder why:
1. They supported the Nazis all the way up to 1940. The excuse given is that the “Final Solution” had not begun yet, but so what? The Nazis were solidly anti Jewish, far more than Brits or anyone else
2. Flirtation with Fascism. Again, multiple members of the Lehi group flirted with Fascism
3. The incident at Deir Yessin. Yes, the Arabs lie about the rapes etc, but an independent ISRAELI commission found that unarmed civilians were killed. Again, this incident has been subject to so much propaganda by the Arab Street that now in Israel people wonder if it even happened. There lies ample evidence that some of those killed were Arab soldiers, but most observers believe that atleast some unarmed civilians were killed
4. The assassination of Folke Bernadotte. Whether the Lehi group agreed with him or not, he was a diplomat and not a soldier.
5. Killing of Jewish “collaborators”. Who defined who was a collaborator
6. Extortion from businesses to fund their campaign. Again, when does extortion become legitimate
7. Support of World Socialism. Many of the Lehi group were avowed “armed” socialists advocating an armed socialist takeover of the world
8. Censorship, most famously the death threats against Hugh Trevor-Roper
Please keep in mind, how difficult it is to dispassionately debate Israeli history. Due to crazy liberals and the Arab Street pouring out millions of gallons of anti Semitic venom per day, any legitimate criticism of various Jewish figures is seen as “Anti Semitic”.
Even here on FR, we consider Israel as Roman Catholics consider the Pope. “Every action of Israel is divinely inspired and it is INCAPABLE of any errors. No errors have ever been committed, can be committed or will be committed by Israel”
That is not healthy. That is not mature. For a mature country an internal introspection is necessary. Do not legitimize people who twisted civilization just because their end goals and yours are the same.
As an example, Hitler disliked communism So, did I. Yet, I dislike Nazism too. The “enemy of my enemy is my friend” is one of the worst life lessons in life. To the great regret of Eastern Europe the eternally evil FDR hooked up with Stalin and put 200 million people in slavery for 60 years, just because Stalin was in a fight with Hitler.
Just my 2 shekels over here. I know you will disagree. That is fine. I wish you peace. Shalom!
*sigh*
I LOVE LOVE LOVE this version of Pride and Prejudice!
And Colin Firth as Mr. Darcy....*swoon*
I ask a simple question, and you put words in my mouth.
1. “They supported the Nazis all the way up to 1940”. Let’s be dispassionate about this. What form did that support take?
2. “Flirtation with fascism”. Again, substantiate. The Betar corps was trained in fascist Italy, true. Some of the trainees liked what they saw there. But what did Lehi do that constituted “flirtation”?
3. Deir Yassin. “There lies ample evidence that some of those killed were Arab soldiers, but most observers believe that atleast some unarmed civilians were killed” some, some, some. Here are the actual numbers. 200 unarmed civilians safely transported to the Old City of Jerusalem in trucks supplied by the Irgun, who also sent a sound truck to announce that fighting was about to start and offering safe transport. 145 Iraqi irregulars killed, at least one after the battle was over, found disguised as a woman, hiding among women. He pulled out a pistol and fired, causing a general melee in which actual women were killed, unarmed, civilian and everything. 105 unarmed civilians were found killed, mixed among the Iraqi irregulars.
The hyperbole and nonsense that Arabs have spewed since Deir Yassin was largely and in part actively encouraged by Menahem Begin. He believed that it would cause a massive, panicked exodus from Israel, which is exactly what occurred. Neither he, nor anyone else, however, imagined that these war-time emigrants would be confined to refugee camps for three or more generations, or that they would remain so designated throughout post 1967 Israel due to the machinations of Resolution 242 and UNRWA. There is one refugee camp right in Jerusalem. Another, el Arub, is located along Highway 60 near Gush Etzion, and looks astonishingly prosperous.
As for the rest following that of Deir Yassin, I’m not going to accuse you of anti-Semitism, or even deny the allegations. They sound true enough. I carry no brief for Lehi, being more a fan of the Irgun. I will, however, say that your tone is somewhat pompous, and better suited for a lecture hall than an informal forum. Loosen up.
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