Posted on 04/21/2011 10:03:09 PM PDT by This Just In
We own the DVD. Fortunately the young woman’s mother wasn’t a Tiger Mother.
The cinematography is outstanding. I grew tired of Ang Lee’s attempt to merge the Eastern traditions and mythology with the Wests liberal ideology. One thing is for certain; Crouching Tiger-Hidden Dragon is Black Belt Theatre on steroids. It’s the finest “Kung Fu” production on film.
What is best in life ?
to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women
If attending Harvard helps that, then so be it.
There are many forms of satisfaction.
Not true as I have seen it. The teachers/education groups are all liberal or worse, and intensely hostile to Chua.
Your anecdotes don’t prove any point. I’m part Asian, and some of the homes I’ve spent time in feature well appointed bookshelves. This is anecdotal as well.
“Its NOT an academic tradition. In most cases we are talking about the children or grandchildren of peasants and laborers;”
Are you suggesting that peasants and laborers do not aspire to educate their children? I can tell you that you’re wrong. It is, in part, as a result of these impoverished conditions that caused these Asian families to pursue an education.
My granny would have called your comment “consuelo de bobo” - a fools consolation.
There is going to be little satisfaction being “happy” peasants in a world owned by our betters.
That is in fact more or less the subject of Chua’s other book.
I am not making my point I’m afraid.
There are poor people the world over - most everyone in the world is poor or only recently came out of poverty.
Why do the Asian poor, with NO academic tradition, outperform the African or Latin American poor, which come out of societies that are no worse educated ? Fujian province in the 1960’s was no better off than Mali or Bolivia.
SOME Asian homes have educated members and books. Asian homes where people are “fresh off the boat” in San Francisco for instance, mostly don’t. And THEIR children, books or not, beat the academic snot out of everyone regardless. Why ?
This is not anecdotal. We have the statistics to back it. Asian kids in San Francisco (an excellent real life laboratory for this), with high poverty, non-English speaking parents, low literacy parents, are still the cream of the crop.
There are no answers. This is perhaps the most pressing social and economic question there is, anywhere. If we can make other people perform like these people the economic benefit would be tremendous.
So achievement at the cost of happiness is is a-okay...
Well I disagree.
While I want my children to do well, their happiness is more important to me. Achievement is empty without happiness.
And I didn’t say achievement was unimportant, it is very important, I simply said happiness is more important.
What I’m saying is that our conceptions of happiness, and in particular of personal happiness as a goal, are short-sighted.
We would perhaps be better off, and really, truly happier, if our aim was to instill above all a sense of duty.
As I stated earlier, no one is denying the statistics. As I pointed out previously, Asian tradition and cultural influence play a pivotal role in what enables Asians to achieve academically.
You stated that there is no answer. I disagree. When you examine their performance and achievement you’ll note a common trait: discipline, focused commitment, and a high set of standards and goals.
Unlike many Asians, and especially first and second generation immigrants, a high number of American parents have been educated by a system which exploits the average citizen, and especially those living in poverty, into replying on the federal government to function as their Big Daddy.
As I’m sure you will agree, our discussion requires a lengthy debate. Time is not on our side on this topic, but I believe we understand each others position.
If on the other hand the question is "Are overbearing mothers better than loving, caring mothers?" then the answer is absolutely not.
Well stated, although, I wouldn’t describe Chua as overbearing. She is criminally abusive. If Ann Coulter had children, and she wrote a book which described the same type of tactics and forms of discipline Amy Chua expressed in her book, the Left would be screaming for a criminal indictment and conviction.
But is that your goal, or your child’s goal to go to Harvard? I believe in the value of a good education, but I also believe in having some sort of balance. What I remember from my teenage years was my parent looking at my report card and only looking at where i could do better, not at the fact that i was first in my class. It started feeling that no matter what I did, it was never good enough.
My point, and more or less what Chua was trying to achieve with her book, is that it is necessary to unpack that thing you call “tradition and cultural influence”. As it is they are just blanket terms with no useful specifics.
And, unfortunately, neither are “discipline, focused commitment, and a high set of standards and goals”. These are not specific enough. Chua demonstrates her version of the concepts through her description of the specifics, many of which are controversial. Fine, other people have other specifics that may be less controversial but work as well, but this needs deep analysis. We need much more of this, and far more detailed.
Exactly what does a Chinese mother do to her child from day one to the age of three to make him a world-beater ? How does she speak to that baby ? What does she say, and when ? How does she play with him ? Touch him ? What rewards, punishments or responses does she use ? Which of these behaviors are relevant to improved performance ? This is what we need to know, in order to TRAIN other people to raise their children the same way.
On your other point - Other immigrants who have not been trained to treat the US government (or European governments, or Arab governments, etc., the phenomenon is global) as “big daddy” nevertheless do not achieve like Asians. Why Asians and not Mexicans ?
When I was in college I tutored a girl from Korea in math. Most people assumed she was my tutor! She used to tell me how people would ask her if they could copy her test in math or science courses just because she was Asian, and her answer was “yeah if you want to fail!”
What is balance ?
This does not have a specific meaning. It is, I think, purely circumstantial and even then subjective.
What you may consider balance other people will regard as whimsical indulgence.
The only way we can get a valid basis for judgment is to study the matter of child-raising in a truly scientific manner, to determine parameters for outcomes given different processes and inputs. At that point we can establish truly valid “best practices”.
At the moment though, your guess is as good as mine or Amy Chua’s, with the sole difference that her kids are getting into Harvard and ours aren’t.
Many Jews traditionally gravitated toward the professions of doctor, lawyer, banker, etc because in Europe especially where many came from they were not allowed to own land and these professions did not require land ownership. The tradition has stayed in the culture to the modern day.
“Why Asians and not Mexicans ?”
Perhaps traditions and culture? Amy Chua is not from China. She is an American. Her parents are immigrants. The fact that you would describe her methods in raising her daughters as “controversial” reveals a lot. Denying food to a child until she has practiced her piano lesson for over eights hours is hardly “controversial”. It’s child abuse. And that’s just one example.
You claim there is no reason for these statistics, which is absolutely absurd. No individual, let alone a specific ethnic group, can consistently perform and achieve at such a high level without discipline and commitment. Try and sell that line of thinking to a Gold Medal Olympic athlete.
Did you read Dr. Mohler’s article? If not, I encourage you to do so. He addresses some of what you’re touching on. You continue to assume that I believe it all boils down to “tradition and cultural influence”, but what you fail to realize is that this part of the equation, though concisely identified, is very complex.
There is a common thread in both American society, with some exceptions, and that of Asian society. That thread involves an unconditional devotion to a child’s complete development.
Incidentally, I never suggested that we shouldn’t conduct further studies involving this topic.
All people achieve on a curve, if you want to put it that way. There certainly are all sorts of Chinese individuals.
What we are talking about here is the location of group averages and the “fatness” of the tails, the part of the phenomenon that fills elite universities.
My question on immigrants still stands. We have immigrants from all over, from every poor country there is, all of whom have had the initiative and cleverness to overcome all the obstacles to immigration. Yes these others, once here, do not achieve like Chinese, Koreans, etc.
There are international tests and there are international tests. The ones I like are the PISA and TIMSS series, which are quite successful in arranging for truly representative samples, including children in non-academic tracks. This is only possible in some countries however. I don’t know of any valid testing from China and India.
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