70-year dream of aircraft carrier close to reality

South China Morning Post (SCMP) ^ | Apr 7, 2011 | Minnie Chan & Julian Ryall

[stevie_d_64]

With math like that, it’s easy to conclude you be a special won-ton soup for da crew of dat ting...

If shirt dirty, I take light starch, number ten, lucky charm!

[sukhoi-30mki]

Err, China’s sins continue on the international stage. It’s just not as blatant. And if you think supplying nuclear technology to the Pakis and Koreans is the same as supplying F-15s to Saudi Arabia, I don’t know what to tell you.

[ponder life]

Thanks for conveying it to me.

[ponder life]

And if you think supplying nuclear technology to the Pakis and Koreans is the same as supplying F-15s to Saudi Arabia, I don’t know what to tell you.

Well, what do you mean by supplying nuclear technology?

I do believe China helping Pakistan with jet fighters is not different than the US selling F-15s to Saudi Arabia. And by the way, Pakistan is a democracy and Saudi Arabia is not. And before you tell me about Pakistan harboring Islamist terrorists, well.... you heard of where Osama Bin Ladin is originally from? And he ain't the only one in that country with his thinking. And the US sells F-15s to them.

Err, China’s sins continue on the international stage. It’s just not as blatant.

hmmmmmm......China invaded Vietnam in 1979, yet today is negotiating high speed rail projects. Had border wars with Russia in the late 60's but have settled them recently (angering many Chinese citzens and accusing the government of giving away Chinese soveriegnty) and now have gas and oil pipelines in the works. So, not sure what you mean by "continue on....." and yet "just not as blatant". And China's past conflicts were not so one sided. Border wars with Russia in the lates 60s?, well seems to me there was some wranglings between Russia (USSR) and the US during that time as well. Maybe not armed conflict, but tensions. Ever hear about the Cuban Missle crisis (early 60's). Shall we put the blame squarely on the US simply because it happened?

And India and Pakistan still shoot at each other ocassionally, so what does that say about India? China, had her contribution in the conflict with India back in the early 60's, but I don't believe India was a totally unprovoked angel sitting and minding her own business and big bad China comes along and launches a border war with her. India, afterall, is still a nation that practices the cast system and is unlikely to go away soon.

So while tensions continue to exist between India and China, the two countries, driven mainly by China, are looking for ways to expand trade. And lets not forget those Central Asian countries. Once again, China is negotiating with those countries to allow a pathway to build oil pipelines from the Middle East, through Central Asia and onto China. Can get that done if you're shooting at one another.

[ponder life]

.....Can’T get that done if THEY’RE shooting at one another.

[sukhoi-30mki]

Anyone with half a brain will tell you that Pakistan’s nuclear weapons programme, cruise and ballistic missile efforts wouldn’t have been possible without Chinese help. Pakistan being a democracy-well most of those deals took place during the Zia ul Haq and Musharraf eras.

If India has the caste system, it at least has a government and institutions to attempt equality for all. Unlike a certain nation which has resettled Han Chinese all over Tibet and destroyed its culture. About India being an angel, well everyone knows that its the Chicom government which still supports militant groups in the Northeast of the country. Since you dont want to believe any of that, you can go and crawl back into your comfy little world of Chinese pride.

[MimirsWell]

You’re wasting your time with FR’s version of “Grandpa Wen”. This guy claims he’s American, toes the Chicom line and makes no excuses for China’s past and instead compares it to America 200 years ago. Wipes his a$$, I mean slate clean of China selling weapons to rogue states like the Norks and Iran and not to mention that almost all the weapons in Africa these days, wielded by civilian killing rebels and authoritarian governments like Zimbabawe are made in...you guessed it right...China! He makes excuses like “oil” and “resources”.

Americans beware, you have got many such spies of Chinese origin waving American passports at you. They’ll sell your secrets to the “motherland” and when its time for war, they’ll probably play a very definitive role for China against the USA.

[ponder life]

Well, that's why I want you to elaborate. In the early days, China may not have taken as seriously the non-poliferation treaty.

Recently, China's help with Pakistan for some nuclear reactors came under scrutiny. However, the US said recently, that she will not oppose the deal. Also, the recent reactor deals are done under the supervision of the International Atomic Energy Agency.

By the way, as a side note, I hope, during our discussions, you knew that Pakistan bought some F-16s from the US recently didn't you? ;)

And as far as Northeast India, the past is the past. What do you think of this picture? Of course, you're going to accuse me of drumming up propagand ;)

http://shibshankar.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/India-China-International-Border/G0000CYx9m.jfGkA/I0000xhVrDnJtkUs

The person who posted this picture is a former journalist of the BBC.

[ponder life]

This guy claims he’s American, toes the Chicom line...

Therein lies why there is residual animosity between China and the US. Despite a closer US China relationship, there are Americans, like yourself, who see any betterment of this relationship as anything short of supporting the "enemy" and as treasonous.

Did you know that more and more Americns and living and working in China than ever before? I'm talking about the Anglo Saxon type Americans not just the Asiatic types (though, there are more of those in China as well).

Chinese owned factories will continue to open in America over the next couple of decades. And will be welcomed as the US government struggles with austerity measures.

They’ll sell your secrets to the “motherland” and when its time for war, they’ll probably play a very definitive role for China against the USA.

And therein lies another sentiment that strains US China relations. The belief the two countries will go to war is simply wrong.

If that does happen, it will be because rural grass roots movement in rural America overthrows the US government and reestablishes a new government more akin to many like yourselves on the FR. Ever hear of cosmoline?

As far as my patriotism goes, why do you question it simply because I oppose people like you? I have nothing to complain about the current US government. It provides me protection from people like you, allows me to speak my mind, etc. And yes, it allows companies like General Motors, Boeing, etc. to expand trade with contries like China. And working very hard to bring China into a relationship as close as possible to the ones we have with Europe and Japan. Probaly never get there, but there are people trying to get as close to an understanding as possible.

If anything, those on the FR have more animosity towards the current system of US government than I do. Especially in regards to China. Once again, ever hear of cosmoline? And I know, someone like you knows what I'm talkin about ;)

[sukhoi-30mki]

Why should I elaborate-you can use google to find plenty of information on Pakistan’s strategic weapons programme. You’re damn right-China didn’t take the NPT seriously-it took it for a ride.

About the picture, I really don’t know what’s the big deal with it-I can post pictures of Indian and Pakistani troops, North and South Koreans, Greeks and Turks.

[tanknetter]

The last Nimitz Class built, CVN GHW Bush, has no steam cats.

Sure it does. Here's a picture of the ship's namesake taking part in the first dead-load launch test of CVN-77's steam catapult system, a few years ago. The white puffy stuff in the picture foreground is the steam from the catapult being tested.



CVN-78 is slated to get the new EM catapults. IF they can get the design to work properly. They've had some recent issue with the prototype ...

[tanknetter]

So...for about a decade, it's just an enourmous barge. How unimpressive.

The Varyag is the ChiCom's Langley (CV-1, not the later CVL). Espionage only gets you so far with the operations of something as complex as a carrier ... they'll need to learn, and assimilate, a lot of knowledge by actually going out and doing (or failing).

The ChiComs aren't really looking to outright challenge the US for control of the West Asia sealanes in the near/mid future. They're certainly looking to give the US pause in attempting to exercise it's control to the fullest (they can inflict unacceptable losses on us faster than we can on them), but perhaps more importantly they're looking at their initial carrier capability to provide a better check on the aspirations of India*, while making Taiwan and some of the other lesser powers in the region nervous.

(* India will get the refitted Kiev-class Gorshkov at about the same time. The Gorshkov has been rebuilt, at great cost, into a smaller "cousin" of the Kuznetsov/Varyag design flying MiG-29Ks. India does have more recent experience with taking fixed wing airpower to sea, but in a limited capacity with Hermes and a dwindling supply of older-model Sea Harriers)

[Redcloak]

So their 70-year dream culminates in a 26-year old, hand-me-down carrier?

[Rudder]

I heard that the EM catapults were to be installed before launching the hull. But, what do I know...?

[rmlew]

Are you a Panda hugger, peon in a Chicom-run company, Free-trader now run by the ChinComs, or just doing a really bad job at PRC propoganda?

[ponder life]

Well, you do need to elaborate. You are the one making the accusation. The time frame, the specific accusations, the government reports, etc. China has since been convinced how important the NPT and have been working with the US on non-proliferation.

As far as finding similar pictures, well, it all depends what those pictures depict. If its a North Korean and South Korean soldier shaking hands across the DMZ, I hardly think that is comparable to Chinese generals, bringing their families into Northeast India, marching side by side with their Indian counterparts, grasping hands side by side with alternating generals. And the fact that the picture was taken by an Indian correspondent who specializes in Northeast India working for the BBC. So, the link I that sent you, I feel, carries weight.

Your reaction to this picture is why it is nearly impossible for me to convince you and others like you of my point of view, and that is, people will believe what they want to believe. It doesn't matter the source, or what is depicted.

Recently, someone in China made the comment that, if local insurgents are supported, India can be fragmented into 20-30 differnt countries. This comment sent shock waves across India. China has since disavowed his comment as his own personal view and not the official view of China. However, people like you will easily grab onto information like this as clad iron proof China has ill intentions toward India. And yet will trivialize information about generals who openly bring their families into Northeast India to meet with their Indian counter parts and to have their picture taken by an Indian corresponding who had worked for the BBC.

Many like you, don't believe anything China says, but when someone makes a comment about fragmenting India, all of sudden, that is a credible source.

There is one mistake I have to admit I made, and that is I criticized Western media's portrayal of China. However, it all depends on the media source. For example, Businessweek, and media sources like them, do a good job of reporting China. However, this type of media source in regards to China, you will consider propanda and the owners in the pocket of the Chinese. Yet, when someone like Lou Dobbs speaks about China, somehow he becomes 100% credible. And every negative thing he says about China then becomes the gospel truth whereas Businessweek is run by a bunch of traitors.

So, in the end, you have confirmed to me what I've always known, that people will believe what they want to believe.

[ponder life]

None of those insulting labels.

I'm an American of Chinese descent who wants to see US China relations taken to the same level of a US Britain level. And doing so in the face of extreme reverse political correctness.

[ponder life]

None of those insulting labels.

I'm an American of Chinese descent who wants to see US China relations taken to the same level of a US Britain level. And doing so in the face of extreme reverse political correctness.

[rmlew]

I'm an American of Chinese descent who wants to see US China relations taken to the same level of a US Britain level.
We have shared history and traditions with Britain, not with China. Britian is a relatively free constitutional monarchy. The People's Republic of China is a communist country turing increasingly fascist.

And doing so in the face of extreme reverse political correctness.
You mean like movies and games switching the logical enemy from China to the laughable thought of invasion of the US by North Korea?

[rmlew]

I’m not anti-Chinese. I want better relations with China, free China that is. The way we kowtow to the butchers of Beijing over the Republic of China is despicable.