Germany: Abstained on Libya no-fly zone due [to] risks

Reuters ^ | March 18, 2011 | Stephen Brown; Editing by Michael Roddy

[PapaBear3625]

Since the fall of the Third Reich the Germans have believed in nothing and, in a sense, everything. They are cursed.

I'm fine with Gaddafi and the rebels killing each other. The US has no vital interests that would be advanced by sticking our noses into a civil war.

[Cronos]

We tend to forget history and just remember France's actions during WWII forgetting that:

1. during WWI the bulk of the battles were on French territory, the dreaded trench warfare, giving them a dread of war -- it's easy for us Americans or the Germans prior to WWII to talk, the French had experienced the deaths of millions on their soil and were not so eager this time

2. France prior to the battle of Sedan was still the premier fighting force on the European sub-continent.

3. In fact France under Napoleon was if anything far more powerful and far more successful than hiteler's Germany -- Napoleon managed to conquer most of Western Europe and even advanced to capture Moscow.

4. France prior to Napoleon was also a top world power -- in fact until the 1757 Battle of Plassey, and the Indian Wars was in fact leading England in the American and Indian continents.

5. Prior to that they were the main power after the decline of the Spanish in the mid 1600s

6. Going further back, the Franks under Charlemagne were instrumental in putting some semblance of order in Western Europe

Don't get me wrong, I still think they are slime, who have caused a lot of the world's problems from aligning with the Turks in the 1600s to the destruction of the Knights Templar by Philip the Fair in the 1300s. however, historically they are not in general cowards

[newzjunkey]

Pathetic.

Couldn't agree more. What happened to the German people?

[Winniesboy]

Thanks for that useful reminder of facts which tend to get overlooked here. You mention WW1 - but in particular worth remembering Verdun, where the French successfully resisted (at enormous cost) the most powerful and sustained military assault in history up to that time.

[Smokin' Joe]

We need to get our house in order,

WHile that is self evident, let the Muslim factions fight it out. Neither has been our friend.

...the Un should be able to handle Lybia without us being involved

What in the heck do we 'pay' them for? That's another place where friends are few and far between.

Like I said, "Who would you back?" Which extremist Muslims? Khadaffi or the MB? One brought Pan Am 103, the other cheered on 9/11.

[Smokin' Joe]

Politics. What are they supposed to do? Say we aren’t getting in this ‘cause we think both sides stink’?

[ohioman]

And don’t forget my favorite Frenchman - Charles the Hammer, who saved Europe from Islam.

[Cronos]

Thank you. Yes, we all can be terribly short-sighted at times.

Verdun -- I've been there and to the graveyard at Ypres and those are humbling sights "between the crosses row on row"...

From wikipedia:

Casualties and losses
France	Germany
542,000[3]-400,000;[4] of whom 163,000 died	434,000[3]-355,000;[4] of whom 143,000 died

21 February–18 December 1916

"The Verdun battlefield itself is actually a vast graveyard since the mortal remains of over 100,000 missing combatants are still dispersed underground wherever they fell. To this day they are still being discovered by the French Forestry Service which turns them over to the Douaumont ossuary where they find a final resting place."

[aces]

agreed, kick out Khadafi and usher in al queda, I just can’t believe we have not started a ww2 type effort to drill and convert shale etc...refine etc...

[ASOC]

Perhaps they view half a loaf is more than theu have now. I find it - odd - that the US media hass been all but silent on Egypian military foces running guns and providing ‘training’ to the locals.....

Of course now the Queen Hilary of the American Empire has declared the Col must go, things will be all bright and shiney in no time. Eh?

[ASOC]

Let's see. The US has forces in 123 different countries, is involved in not one but two shooting wars, an active “police action” at home against drug cartels and gangs, and oddly finds itself some 14 trillion in debt.

Pathetic? Not so much. I understand that the good folks in the Bundesrepublik Deutschland have been preoccupied with the effort and expense of cleaning up the old Deutsche Demokratische Republik - quite the task, no doubt.

I fear that many see that the old "American Empire" has run out of steam - maybe it IS time for folks round the world to starting cleaning up thier own messes - as Germany has done much to their credit - and the US try to sort out it's now considerable internal issues.

What would the world do if at every disaster the 'pathetic' US military (formerly known as the Imperialist lackey running dog killers) DIDN'T show up to help?

No C-17/C-130s ferrying in food, water and shelter supplies, no pushy bastards running the Air Traffic Control so those supplies could actually be landed, no choppers to carry aid to earthquake stricken remote areas, no tons of supplies - freely given?? Oh and no greedly corrupt locals looting the supplies before they get to those in need - eh?

Why, I would say it would be a different world altogether.

SO, is this your offer for the good people of the Bundesrepublik Deutschland to take the lead, and provide disaster relief, security to the oppressed and so on?

If so, I welcome your help to carry the ever increasing burden.

If not - well, enjoy a beer for me will you?

I seem to be otherwise busy for the near future.

Schönen Tag noch!

[Smokin' Joe]

With another look at the impending 'Islamic Republic' in Egypt, the idea that someone is running guns to the 'revolutionaries' in Libya is ominous to say the least.

An 'Islamic Republic' in Egypt would mean Sharia Law, and running the guns over to Libya would mean they think they have it in the bag and are after the next 'domino' of the Caliphate.

Khadaffi, despite his involvement with the Lockerbie Bombing, had turned over his WMDs and been pretty well behaved toward the west compared to the MB, Hamas, AlQauid, and Hizb'allah.

In addition, it is a common mindset in Asia that the strong man should rule, not some wimpy coalition. That often requires an iron fist. Without that, there will be a power vacumn, and no one knows for certain who will fill it, but all indications are that the mullahs are behind this, and Iran's fingers are in there somewhere...

...and we appear to be backing the wrong horse in this race, when it might well have been best if we had stayed out of it.

We can count on one thing, that the people from the State Deaprtment will do the wrong thing.

[americanophile]

In diplomatic parlance, how about, “We don’t feel that Germany’s vital interests are at stake in this conflict and believe it is a matter best resolved internally by the Libyan people.” At least that’s honest.

[FW190]

"There was a time when the Germans were less fearful about fighting in the Libyan desert.

Yeah but things didn't work out very well for them back then."

How did that Battle of the Kasserine Pass work out for ya, Ami?

My uncles picked up some good used M1s there. Never fired, only dropped once!

[americanophile]

I don’t care if they get involved or not, and I would prefer the USA stay out of it. My point was that their statement that confronting Libya, Libya, as part of a multi-member international coalition constituted “considerable dangers and risks.” That’s pretty pathetic. Tell us your national interests aren’t at stake and I’ll buy that...tell me Germany’s scared and, well...

[Frood]

We are not glad here in Germany about the decision made by Merkel and Westerwelle. Gaddafi is a murderer and the Lybian people need to be protected. So, I do not understand, how they dare to behave like Russia and China hiding behind concernes about “considerable dangers and risks”.

[fso301]

How did that Battle of the Kasserine Pass work out for ya, Ami?

Not so well but strategic victory is never without tactical defeats along the way. If memory serves me correctly, Three months later, all members of the Afrika Corps remaining in North Africa were being loaded onto US ships heading to America to spend the rest of the war picking cotton and digging potatoes.

My uncles picked up some good used M1s there. Never fired, only dropped once!

Such is the case when green troops led by inept commanders come up against experienced, well led troops. The US tactical defeat at Kasserine merely highlighted American inexperience and inept leadership. A problem successfully remedied by sacking Gen. Fredendall and replacing him with Gen. George Patton.

[Smokin' Joe]

Pretty good, imho. However it is pretty obvious that the reason that the EU wants stability restored is reflected in the disparity between the price of Brent Crude and WTI.

Stability inevitably restores the marginal reserve and reduces oil prices, especially in the EU, which means better economic outlooks for the countries there.

Behind almost every military action is the driving force of survival, militarily (not so for Germany in this case) or economic.

In this case, the German Gov't apparently weighed the options versus the expense in lives and treasure and decided the possible outcomes would not support the risk to either their economy or their military personnel.

[Ronald_Magnus]

With the sh*thead we have in the White House, it’s a wonder ANY country would join us.

[MinorityRepublican]

Yep that’s what it looks like here. The clash between Western and Islamic Civilizations.